The issue of
“private interpretation” of Scripture (also called “private judgment”) comes up
quite often in Catholic / Protestant debates.
This article is mainly directed toward Catholics, but it is not just for Catholics, since there are many
others who also misunderstand the concept.
The only time the term is actually mentioned in the Bible is in 2
Peter 1:20:
“Knowing this first,
that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”
Many will
say that this verse “warns us against private interpretation.” No, the Apostle Peter was not warning against
anything in this verse. So, let’s put
this false teaching to rest, once and for all.
This was not a warning of any
kind. On the contrary, if read in context,
one will see that this passage is actually an encouragement about the truthfulness and reliability of
Scripture. Many miss the whole point of this
verse and twist it to say what it doesn’t mean.
Note that:
- It is not telling us that we can’t interpret Scripture
- It is not telling us that interpretation is “dangerous”
- It’s not telling us that only a certain organization or “magisterium” can interpret for us
- It is not telling us that only church leaders can interpret for us
- It mentions nothing of a need for “infallibility” when reading the Bible
Many people just
assume these things are true from the
start. But let’s look at this passage IN
CONTEXT:
2 Peter 1:
v. 18) “And this voice
which came from Heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount.”
v. 19) “We have also a
more sure Word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as unto a
light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the Day Star arise
in your hearts:”
v. 20) “Knowing this
first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”
v. 21) “For the
prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as
they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
How can one
“take heed” to prophecy (verse 19) if he can’t interpret that prophecy? Also, why does the apostle compare Scripture
to a light (verse 19) if Scripture interpretation keeps us in the dark (as
many believe)? The comparison of
Scripture to “light” is meaningless if we can’t interpret its contents.
As any
honest Bible reader can see, this passage is speaking of the ORIGIN of the
message that God gave to the apostles and prophets and is NOT speaking of the
READING of the Bible. It is speaking of
the SOURCE of prophetic Scripture, not the STUDY of it. The prophets heard from God and, with God’s
help, infallibly interpreted that message and infallibly related it to their
audience. The meaning of this passage is
simply that Scripture did not originate in the mind of mere men. It came directly from the mind of God, not
from human impulse.
Also, notice
(v.
18) that Peter is referring to the time he had personally seen the Lord
Jesus transfigured. (Matthew 17:1-9) This was
a very real and personal experience for Peter, yet he speaks of Scripture as an even “more sure word”! (v.
19)
Concerning the
definition of “private interpretation,” the Greek words for it simply mean
“one’s own interpretation.” A private
interpretation is one that is fallible.
The prophets were not affected by fallibility when they received God’s
words. But all the rest of us today are
when it comes to reading Scripture. So how
does the one reading the Bible really know that he is being led by the Holy
Spirit? How does he know that he is
arriving at God’s interpretation, as
opposed to his own? Answer: Your interpretation will be correct if it
lines up with the rest of Scripture, with the immediate context and the overall
context taken into account. Yes, and God
allows (even demands) common sense be
used as well, when interpreting His Word.
Furthermore, history, genre, grammar, etc., also help us to understand.
But according
to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a private interpretation is only right when it agrees with (or, at
least doesn’t contradict) the Catholic Church (CCC #119). Interestingly, this would mean that the
Catholic can trust his own fallible interpretation of Scripture as long as that
interpretation does not contradict his own fallible interpretation of the
Church’s dogmatic teachings. And this is supposed to produce the
“infallible certainty” of which they boast?
The Catholic
believes that his church’s magisterium has
the final word. But it is Scripture that is the Ultimate Standard
for Christians, not any church, denomination, or organization. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
According to
the online New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (under “Protestantism”) we read:
“Again, it is illogical to base faith
upon the private interpretation of a book [i.e., the Bible]. For faith consists in submitting; private
interpretation consists in judging. In faith by hearing, the last word rests
with the teacher; in private judgment it rests with the reader, who submits the
dead text of Scripture to a kind of post-mortem examination and delivers a
verdict without appeal: he believes in himself rather than in any higher
authority.”
In all
fairness, some Catholics will admit that private interpretation is acceptable
and necessary, but many Catholics will say no and create a false dilemma here. In this case, either:
2) He will have a wrong interpretation.
But these are
not the only two options. Someone can
give a fallible interpretation and
still be right. Catholics will often point out that
Protestants are “limited” to fallible interpretations, and therefore, have
little or no certainty. But this is a
clear double standard, since the Catholic cannot escape this same “dilemma” of
using his fallible mind to interpret
his sources, whether that source is Scripture, the magisterium, the church
fathers, Tradition, or whatever. It is
unavoidable. All forms of communication must be interpreted. And all of us have fallible minds and make
fallible interpretations. The truth is,
the Catholic has no more certainty in interpreting Scripture than anyone else
does.
One way that
the Catholic thinks that he can get around the “problems” of fallible
interpretations and lack of certainty is by first finding the “True Church”
(which, of course, he’ll say is the Catholic Church). But how do we determine that they are the true church? He’ll tell us that we must first find it
through a study of Scripture, church history, Sacred Tradition, and the church
fathers, and this will lead us to an infallible Church who will then be able to
tell us correctly what Scripture means.
At this point, we can then rest and never have to worry about our certainty
in interpretation any more.
But if you
can understand Scripture well enough to “verify” a papal office and its claims
of infallibility, and if you can interpret this never-clearly-defined “Sacred
Tradition”, and if you can interpret the multi-faceted history of the church,
and if you can interpret the teachings of the church fathers (whose language is
often harder to understand than the Bible), and if you can piece all of this
together to find the “One True Church”… then why couldn’t you just simply
interpret the Bible outright?
Ironically, the Catholic Church can’t seem to trust you to interpret the
Bible by itself, yet it expects you to be able to go through the long and
complicated process above. But where is
the certainty that they so desperately desire in all of this process? The fact is, in this case the level of
certainty is lowered!
The Catholic
Church is using very circular reasoning:
They are infallible because that’s what they interpret Scripture to mean.
How do we know that this is the correct interpretation? Because they are infallible! Should faithful Catholics believe the Church’s
interpretations because they make good sense and because they line up with
biblical principles? No, they want them
to believe it because they say so.
CONCLUSION
No matter how you slice it, it is
always ultimately you who will stand
before God… and you (and your interpretations) will be judged accordingly,
whether you followed your own ideas or whether you chose to be subject to an
authority of some type. No one will be
able to fully blame anyone else on Judgment Day. If you, as a responsible adult, don’t test
all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21) by God’s Word, it will be no one’s fault
but your own.
The Bible is inspired by God and it therefore has enough consistency in its texts and in its principles to help us discern what God is telling us. Otherwise, why would He bother to give it to us?
CONCLUSION
Even though
we all need help interpreting now and then, there is no “special authority” required
to interpret the Bible. Every Christian
should be growing in his personal study of God’s Word. However, it’s not an overnight process; and you
don’t have to have a perfect understanding or perfect interpretations of every
Bible verse to be pleasing to God. But
God does expect us to interpret His
Word when He speaks of “rightly dividing the Word of truth” (2
Timothy 2:15). We may not have
infallible certainty, but we can have sufficient
certainty. Like it or not, when
reading Scripture, all interpretations
are private interpretations – there may be a lot of people who interpret a
passage the same way that you do, but each one of them must still fallibly interpret
what they read.
The Bible is inspired by God and it therefore has enough consistency in its texts and in its principles to help us discern what God is telling us. Otherwise, why would He bother to give it to us?
We encourage
everyone to read the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament. Read them in context and read them slowly,
carefully, and prayerfully. Read them
with a humble attitude because they are God’s words to us. They are words of life, eternal life.
See also:
I'm not aware that the Church teaches what you suggest she teaches. The Church knows that what the verse means (she wrote it!).
ReplyDeleteI am curious why you would think 2 Tim 3:16 somehow supports your theory that the Scriptures are the ultimate authority. Where does 2 Tim teach that? In every version I've read, 2 Tim 3:16 (in context) teaches that the [OT] Scriptures have equal authority as the Sacred Tradition (teaching authority).
Also, there is nothing "circular" about the Church's beliefs. The Church pre-dates the Bible; her authority pre-dates NT Scripture. With her authority, she not only gave us the Bible, but is the body that interprets it. What is circular, however, is Protestantism's attempt to swipe an already-created canon, ignore the authority that matter-of-factly created it, then use it to somehow establish a religion that, essentially teaches that "the Bible is what the Bible says it is."
So, if you are really trying to "answer Catholics" then perhaps you should actually present Catholicism instead of a straw man. That is, after all, how good apologetics is done.
Patrick
How could you not know? Russell has documentation from the Catholic Catechisms directly proving his points. obviously then, you are just in the state of denial. The Catholic Church never wrote a particle of the New Testament!
DeleteI am curious to why you would think that 2 Timothy 3:16 supports the Catholic myth of "sacred tradition". As a matter of fact, tradition is not even implied in the context. There is not even the slightest implication of "the equal authority of Church tradition to Scripture." That belief arose long after the New Testament was written.
There is a lot of circular reasoning with Catholic beliefs. Like I have said before, the Catholic Church never wrote the New Testament and will never get credit for lying about it. If "the church pre-dates the Bible, her authority pre-dates NT Scripture, and is the body that interprets Scripture", why is the Bible completely silent about such a claim? Why is there no proof to such an arrogant claim? Why does the Bible always imply that it is the highest authority of the Church? For instance, we are told not to exceed what is written(1 Corinthian 4:6) or no one can add to scripture (Revelation 22:19) Since the Catholic Church lacks so much proof to the extraordinary claims it makes, it is forced to argue in a circle. Look, you cannot prove your claims! "A=B because I say that B=A. I know that B=A because A=B." "The pope is infallible in teaching because he says he is!"
So, if YOU are really trying to prove that the Catholic religion is correct, then YOU should present evidence that you are correct rather than ranting about true information posted on someone's webpage. One has to wonder, why do you Catholics strive so hard to defend such unbiblical practices?
Jesse
Hello Patrick,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments.
Concerning the Catholic Church writing the Bible, see here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html
You asked how 2 Timothy 3:16 supports the idea of Scripture as the Ultimate Authority. In a nutshell, in 2 Timothy 3, the Apostle Paul is describing a time coming when men will not listen to the truth, and deception will be widespread. Paul knows that he is about to be martyred, so he is making sure that he is passing on to Timothy what is most important. He is pointing to the ONE infallible source that will keep Timothy (and everyone else) on the right track… he is pointing to Scripture. And he describes it as able to equip us for “every good work,” therefore sufficient as a Rule of Faith. Contrary to your statement, Paul doesn’t mention anything here about some Catholic concept of “Sacred Tradition” having equal authority with Scripture.
And there are many other passages throughout the Bible that support the concept of Scripture as the ultimate authority.
You mentioned several times the “authority” of the Catholic Church, and you said that because the Catholic Church “pre-dates” the New Testament, she therefore has authority; authority to “give” us the Bible, and she has the sole authority to infallibly interpret it. In essence, she always has the final word. I would certainly disagree.
By the way, a “straw man” argument implies misrepresentation on my part. Patrick, tell me where exactly have I misrepresented the Catholic Church anywhere in the above article? What I said about the Catholic Church using circular reasoning is absolutely true.
The Protestant concept of “The Bible is what the Bible says it is” is also very true. Look, we both agree that the Bible is infallible. But God has proven the reliability of Scripture over and over, and has created the Bible in a way that it is consistent with itself. We are certain that we can trust it.
On the other hand, we cannot say that the Catholic Church is consistent with itself, since its doctrines and its “Sacred Tradition” often contradict Scripture. So, the Catholic Church cannot be an infallible entity. The Bible always has the final word because it is God-breathed and can be totally trusted; it (in a sense) has “proven itself.” The Catholic Church can’t say this of herself. Your Church’s “authority” is self-proclaimed and unbiblical.
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DeleteIn Genesis 2:7, Adam was God-breathed. But no prophet ever invented a dogma of 'Adam Alone' or 'Man Alone'. Neither patriarch nor prophets invented such a heresy as you are embracing.
DeleteIn John 20:21-23, Jesus breathed the Apostles. So the Apostles are God-breathed. Yet, they never invented a doctrine of 'Soli Apostoli' or 'The Apostles Alone'. The Apostles didn't invent a heresy as you are upholding.
You see, proving Sola Scriptura on a passage saying that the Scriptures are God-breathed is a pathetic effort to prove the obvious point that it is unbiblical and un-apostolic and not taught by God at all.
Your God-breathed argument is very pathetic. The Scripture is God-breathed but your Sola Scriptura is bad breath.
Kaizen,
DeleteYou can mock all you want, but you are simply showing your true colors concerning your attitude toward God’s Word.
All Catholics seem to CLAIM to love God’s Word, but many of them often approach 2 Timothy 3:16-17 not realizing the magnitude of what the apostle Paul is actually saying there. They will often emphasize the word “profitable” in verse 16, yet seem to totally ignore the impact of the word “inspired” (God-breathed) in verse 17 in this context.
Catholics make a very big deal out of John 20:22-23, where Jesus breathes on the apostles, yet strangely, they seem to ignore or downplay the fact that He calls His Scripture “God-breathed,” as well.
And if the Scriptures are indeed God-breathed (and by extension, infallible), and if no other source in the post-apostolic church is given the same status, and if the Scriptures equip us for EVERY GOOD WORK… then Sola Scriptura follows: it is the only infallible source for the post-apostolic church.
Russell, have you noticed that right before your favorite verses, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition?
DeleteVerse 14 "... continue in what you have learned..."
Verse 15 "... from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures..." -- This verse refers to the Old Testament Scriptures which Timothy was raised.
2Timothy 3:16-17 cannot mean "all of scriptures" because there was no New Testament canon during the time of the Apostles and if those verses mean that Paul was teaching Sola Scriptura, then he contradicted himself in 1 Thess. 2:13:
1 Thess. 2:13 "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which YOU HEARD FROM US, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe." -- That's an oral tradition, not Sola Scriptura.
Verse 17 says "man of God" which refers to a clergyman.. to a Bishop of the Church.. It is not relevant to the layman.
The Catholic Church came first before the Bible and this Church is God-given authority.
The oracle of God was entrusted to the Church and not to a book. When Jesus said "Preach the gospel to all nations.... I am with you always until the end of the world", Jesus referred to concrete human beings comprising the Church. The one entrusted of preaching and teaching the gospel is the Church. "YOU" [i.e., personal pronoun] and not a book.
Kaizen,
DeleteI am well aware of Paul’s reference to Timothy to “continue in the things you have learned” in verse 14. You insist that this refers to “apostolic tradition,” but can you tell me EXACTLY what it was that Timothy had learned from Paul, in full detail? Do you have this precise information? Did you find some sort of ancient tape recording device in which you can hear all the private lessons, word for word, that Timothy learned from Paul? Or perhaps some infallible writings that Paul wrote to Timothy, that are not part of Scripture? Please share it with us, Kaizen. If you can’t, then please stop pretending that you know what it was.
Concerning the rest of your post, I would give you some related links to read, but recent experience with you has suggested that you will not bother to read them, and / or will misrepresent what I wrote, anyway. So, until you can give me a precise and MEANINGFUL definition of “Sacred Tradition” and tell me its exact contents, then don’t offer it as an “infallible” source.
Hi Russell,
ReplyDeleteGood to hear from you.
You said:
Paul knows that he is about to be martyred, so he is making sure that he is passing on to Timothy what is most important. He is pointing to the ONE infallible source that will keep Timothy (and everyone else) on the right track… he is pointing to Scripture.
In so saying, you disprove Scripture alone. Note how St. Timothy needs to be taught about Scripture by St. Paul. Note also, how St. Paul teaches St. Timothy that Scripture may be used for TEACHING (i.e. teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,).
Who is doing the teaching? St. Paul doesn't say, "Pass the Scriptures out that they might read them." No. He says, "they are useful for teaching...." He doesn't say they are "necessary" for teaching.
And note that he acknowledges that St. Timothy already knows the Scriptures which he was taught from his youth:
2 Timothy 3:14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known [the] sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Unless St. Timothy could read from infancy, he learned the contents of Scripture from his mom and grandma. That is why St. Paul doesn't say, "that which you read from infancy".
Therefore, Russell, you are merely using the verse, out of context. The context is Teaching of the Word of God. And St. Paul says Scripture is useful for this purpose.
One more thing, Russell. The letter of 2 Tim is 99.9% about St. Timothy passing on the Word of God by teaching. Protestants focus on this one verse and try to say that St. Paul was teaching Scripture alone. But the context of the entire letter, does not bear that out.
2 Tim 1: 11 for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher. 12 On this account I am suffering these things; but I am not ashamed, for I know him in whom I have believed and am confident that he is able to guard what has been entrusted to me until that day. 13 Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard this rich trust with the help of the holy Spirit that dwells within us.
2 Tim 2:Timothy’s Conduct. 1 [a]So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
2 Tim 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: 2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
Therefore, when you read these words,
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[d] 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Why do Protestants pretend that it is about Scripture alone, when it is clearly about passing on the Word of God by Teaching? This is the Teaching of the entire New Testament. Learn the Word of God from your Teachers in the Faith. Not from Scripture alone.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello De Maria,
ReplyDeleteYou went to great lengths to tell us that Scripture may be used for teaching, and that it must be taught to us. Ok. No one is denying that.
But you act as though this somehow voids the concept of Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura). You should know better than that, since you and I have already debated this at length. And you know the definition of Sola Scriptura that I used:
“Scripture is the only infallible Rule of Faith for the church today.”
There is absolutely nothing in this definition to suggest that Scripture is not to be “taught.” Once again, in 2 Timothy 3, the apostle Paul is pointing to the ONE infallible source that will keep us on the right track… he is pointing to Scripture.
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ReplyDeleteNice job, Jessie.
ReplyDeleteI went ahead and made a comment on the article.
I also began reading some of your articles on your blog and I like what I see!
Keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteHow can one “take heed” to prophecy (verse 19) if he can’t interpret that prophecy? Also, why does the apostle compare Scripture to a light (verse 19) if Scripture interpretation keeps us in the dark (as many believe)? The comparison of Scripture to “light” is meaningless if we can’t interpret its contents.
I understand where you are coming from, but we can take heed to to prophecy without interpreting the scriptures on our own. Christ gave the Apostles and the church authority to teach through oral instruction how to understand and live life for Christ. Without the Aposltes oral and instruction through the church we cannot understand the new testament. Peter is warning against private interpretation because if I interpret the Bible without the authority of the Church teaching me I can interpret it however I like. That means I can make any church I want according to my own interpretation. Which is why there is so many denominations that believe different things because they interpret the Bible however they want. Which causes division which is against Christ's teaching of one Shephard and one Flock.
This is what Paul says about the Church.
I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Timothy 3:14-15)
He is plainly saying the Church that Christ gave them is the pillar and foundation of truth. So without the foundation of truth which is the church one cannot understand the scriptures. Once everyone tried to interpret it on their own then division and confusion came. But before that there was none because the Church of the living God Explained it for them.
This is just a discussion and not a argument. I only care for the truth not who wins a argument.
Peace be with you my brother in Christ
Greetings Unknown,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your irenic tone and accept this as simply a discussion, rather than a debate.
I find it interesting that you can understand that
1) Christ gave us Apostles
2) He gave us a church
3) He “warns” us about private interpretation
4) The church is the pillar and foundation of truth
… and you see these things in the Scriptures. It’s good that you can understand this. But if you can understand these things without an infallible Magisterium, then why can’t you understand other Scripture, as well, without this Magisterium?
You mentioned that Peter is “warning” against private interpretation, but did you miss that part of the article in which I specifically dealt with this? This verse (2 Peter 1:20) is not a warning at all, but an act of encouragement to TRUST THE SCRIPTURES! Please go back and read it carefully (in context) and then go back and look at the list of things I wrote that this passage is NOT telling us.
Nowhere does the Bible say that we need an infallible Magisterium with a special authority to decode the Bible for us. That’s simply a Catholic concept.
You also mention that some interpret the Scriptures “however they like.” But I would agree with you that that is NOT the will of God, to haphazardly and carelessly interpret the Bible just any way you want. We should always approach it with respect and reverence, and we should approach it humbly and prayerfully. But the point is, we CAN INDEED approach the Bible and interpret it, else why would God tell us to “rightly divide the Word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15)? Hint: the word “divide” here refers to interpretation.
By the way, we have an article specifically dealing with 1 Timothy 3:15 and the “pillar and foundation / ground of truth” here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/09/pillar-and-foundation.html
Dear brother in Christ
ReplyDeletePart 1
I agree that Peter of course wants us to Trust Scripture, we can trust Scripture cause Peter himself says it is reliable. He specifically says even after that he has established Scripture as reliable and true that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Peter wouldn't state that if he didn't have a good reason. The reason why he is stating it is cause he knows that even he hasn't learned the truth of the scripture through Private interpretation. Peter and the apostles received the truth from Christ Himself from all that time they spent with him. So that's why he is stating to not interpret the scriptures by oneself or else you will not be able to understand it. The the leaders in the church do not interpret the scriptures by themselves, they just pass down the very teachings that Christ gave the Apostles and the Apostles gave the church. If you want proof that the apostles gave the Catholic church the Authority and that the Catholic Church is the true church look no further then St. Ignatius of Antioch. St. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of St. John the Apostle. Yes the same St. John who stood at Calvary with Jesus, and the same John who wrote in the bible. St. Ignatius of Antioch was born 35 years after Christ's death in 35 A.D. John lived a very Long life so no one can deny that St. Ignatius was his disciple. St. Ignatius was a Bishop in the Catholic Church, here is what he says about it:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8
He is saying even wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. That is a very powerful statement! He also mentions the Eucharist and who should administer it and the offices of the Bishop, Presbetyer(Priest), and deacon. St. Ignatius is clearly stating the Catholic Church as the place where we receive Christ. He didn't even mention the bible and a huge reason why is because the early Church of Christ didn't operate by it because it wasn't even put together yet. The Catholic Church sees the bible as very important, but not important enough to just live by it alone. We believe that with Tradition and Scripture hand in hand is how we should live. The early Church fathers are the closest descendants of Christ's Church and they were part of his Catholic Church. Many of there writings talk about the Eucharist, the Catholic Church and the Papacy. To say that all these men were wrong would be saying that all the early Christians were heretics. History itself proves the Catholic Church with the church Fathers and the teaching of the bible. How can one be sure if they are in the right church if they are protestant, there is way to many denominations. I rather believe in the one Church of Jesus Christ that was handed down from the Apostles to the early Church Fathers. It is evident from history, there is no evidence that refutes that the Apostles didn't hand it down to them. But there is evidence that they did with Ignatius of Antioch for he was St'John's own disciple.
May God's face shine upon :)
Catholic simply means "universal"--the entire Christian church spread throughout the globe.
DeleteWe are all familiar with the traditional Romanist narrative of Christ giving so-called supremacy to Peter and so on, but it just ain't so.
"It was during the Middle Ages that Christianity, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, became a political power in western Europe. A leader called a bishop headed each major Christian community. By the A.D. 500s, the bishops of Rome, now known as popes, became the leaders of the Catholic Church." Eastern Orthodoxy was, “not under the leadership of the popes in Rome, but rather the emperors in Constantinople.” (Our World Today: People, Place and Issues, Boehm, et. Al, Glencoe/McGraw-Hill (2003), page 241, section "The Rise of Christianity")
See these articles for more information:
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/07/biblical-evidence-against-apostle-peter.html
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/04/evaluating-roman-catholic-claims-of.html
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-historical-development-of-papal.html
Dear Brother in Christ
ReplyDeletePart 2
Ok now back to the Pillar and foundation verse, you are greatly devaluing what Paul is saying in Timothy.
He say's it is the Pillar and the Foundation, wow he is showing how much powerful the church really is. For the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Note Paul is referring to it as the pillar and Foundation. The foundation is the strongest Part of the truth, so he is referring to it as the strongest part of the truth. Then he also refers to it as the pillar of the truth. So he is giving it more credit then just being the foundation alone. He is saying that it is not only the foundation of the truth itself but also part of the very structure of the truth. The Magisterium of the church was around with the Apostles before the bible was even written so there would be no point to state you would need a Magisterium when all the Christians already knew it.
May God's Grace shine Upon you and all of us :)
The first and foremost problem with this particular argument is that the context of 1 Timothy 3:15 has been completely ignored. Nowhere did the Apostle Paul say anything in this verse, or in context, about the office of pope, Vatican, or an episcopal council. This verse does not even formulate a distinction between the classes of clergy and laity. In fact, there is nothing about Paul's first epistle to Timothy that demands it to be read only to church leadership. So Roman Catholic apologists are simply engaging in eisegesis here.
DeleteNotice that the Apostle Paul states that he is writing so that we may know how to conduct ourselves in the church. Furthermore, notice that he appeals to his own writing as the standard of authority. In other words, Paul is writing to Timothy (Scripture) so that he would know how to behave in the household of God. This epistle is to help us in remembering apostolic traditions. Scripture is what defines our conduct. Scripture is to function as the ultimate standard of authority, especially in light of the fact that the apostles have departed into the spiritual realm. The purpose of this letter was (and still is) to tell the church how to behave in his absence. The church ministers are therefore to be subjugated to scriptural authority. That is the purpose of Scripture is general (2 Corinthians 13:10; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Thus, opponents of Sola Scriptura are actually shooting themselves in the foot when they appeal to the text of 1 Timothy 3:15 as biblical evidence for a so-called infallible interpreter of Scripture.
DeleteHello again Unknown / Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou brought up a number of things, but I think that we can only make progress in our discussion if we take it slow and address one topic at a time.
Let’s start with 2 Peter 1:20-21. Notice the wording:
v. 20) “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”
v. 21) “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
Peter says “no prophecy of the Scripture.” He is speaking of the words that the prophets and apostles had received from God which became Scripture. He is speaking of the ORIGIN of Scripture, not the READING of it by the people.
He is saying that what God had impressed on them (the prophets and apostles) when receiving prophecy was not the prophets’ own interpretation, but that which came from God Himself. In other words, it was not of HUMAN origin. It wasn’t the prophet’s words or the prophet’s own ideas. It was supernatural. These prophetic Scriptures came from God.
Can we agree on that before we move on?
I agree that the Apostles received Christ's message not through private interpretation of course. But I can't agree that Peter was saying that it only applied to what he and the apostles were taught by Christ for two reasons.
ReplyDelete1. He didn't explicitly say that, he said no prophecy, not the prophecy we received from Christ. It is very clear because he said no prophecy Which is very plain and to the point.
2. Also if we could have our own prophecy of scripture through private interpretation many things can go wrong. Such as our interpretation directly contradicting Christ's and the apostles teachings. That is exactly why there is so many denominations that believe different things cause of their own interpetation that directly contradicting Christ's and the apostles words.
Just like when Luther from his own interpretation said faith alone. But in the book of James it says faith without is dead. That is a example of one's own interpetation contradicting the apostles. Faith and works go hand in hand. One without the other is dead.
I have a question for you, why did you leave the Catholic Church?
It is very inconsistent for you to have us make a personal interpretation of a verse that supposedly forbids private interpretation.
DeleteThe Protestant Reformers simply recognized the plain truths of Scripture in light of Papist lies. They made rightful decisions, alongside with errors. They were fallible humans like we all are.
You clearly don't understand the simple doctrine of Sola Fide, either. Nobody here is suggesting that one is saved by a dead faith.
Justification is by faith apart from the merit, not the presence, of good works. Works are the evidence, not the cause, of a saving faith. I'd like you to try this article on "faith alone":
Deletehttps://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/01/a-hindrance-to-justification-by-works_30.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Unknown,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I will answer your last question that you brought up, as to why I left the Catholic Church.
In my case, there were no “mean priests” or “wanting to live with my girlfriend, but the Catholic Church won’t let me” issues, or anything like that. I left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons. I obtained a Bible and actually started reading it. I began to realize that there were some very real differences between what the Catholic Church was teaching and what the Bible was telling me. The Catholic Church claims to love the Scriptures, yet they were not at all consistent with many biblical teachings. I simply could not stay there with a clear conscience.
Ok, concerning 2 Peter 1:20-21, you said:
“He didn't explicitly say that, he said no prophecy, not the prophecy we received from Christ. It is very clear because he said no prophecy Which is very plain and to the point.”
Unknown, what you are doing here is called eisegesis, or reading your own ideas into the context, when it is not at all speaking of that. What is “very plain and to the point” is the fact that Peter is speaking of that which was RECEIVED by the prophets, not what is READ by those who will see it later on. You can’t force that into the context. “The prophecy we received from Christ” that you mentioned is EXACTLY what Peter was talking about.
Now, I partly agree with your number 2 point above, that some people can, and do, contradict what Scripture says, but that’s not what 2 Peter is talking about. Many Catholics (and even some Protestants) try to use this particular passage to discourage the reading of Scripture because of a misunderstanding of the concept of “private interpretation.” But Peter is NOT AT ALL using it this way in this passage. Anybody who uses this passage to say that “privately interpreting what we read in the Scriptures” is a bad thing is either being dishonest or failing to understand the simple context here.
There are a lot more things I’d like to discuss, but if we can’t agree on this simple context of 2 Peter 1:20-21, then I don’t see that we can get very far in our discussion.
Due to private interpretation,people establish different christian sects... the bible must not establish churches because the church which is roman catholic compiled the bible... thats the end of the story
ReplyDeleteClose, but no cigar.
DeleteIt's funny how both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches claim to possess the fullness of truth, yet maintain contradictory traditions.
When Roman Catholics claim that we can only accept the Bible on the basis of their "infallible" church councils assembling the canon of Scripture, they are guilty of using circular reasoning.
We cannot simply accept the books of the Bible on the basis that the Roman Catholic Church says so. How can we even know that the Roman Catholic Church is infallible? Using the Church to prove the Bible and the Bible to prove the church is totally circular.
Only the cults demand submission to an infallible interpreter of the Scriptures.
Jesse
DeleteNot really circular reasoning.
Jesus establishes the Church ---> Jesus gives authority to the Apostles to guide the Church ---> Apostles establish successors --->
Successors such as Ignatius of Antioch (107 AD) describe the Church as "catholic" ---> Successors with the inherited authority
establish the canon of Scripture and the doctrines ---> Protestants reject the original canon of scripture ---> hence Protestants rejected the authority given by Jesus ---> altered canon = altered doctrines ---> a church with altered doctrines is not the true Church ---> Protestantism has altered doctrines ---> Protestantism is not the true Church.
Mr. Unknown,
DeleteThe authority claims of the Roman Catholic Church are indeed based upon circular reasoning. The pope is infallible because he said so. Scripture and tradition are used to prove the infallibility of "Mother Church", and "Mother Church" uses its own "infallible authority" to verify Scripture and tradition. Your church hierarchy appeals to itself as the final authority in determining truth.
Notice what I had stated previously regarding the meaning of the term "universal"--spread across the globe. That is the biblical definition of the term in describing the Christian church (1 Corinthians 1:2).
The authority claims of the Roman Catholic Church are self-proclaimed and unbiblical. Notice the information that I already provided here in the comments section months ago:
"It was during the Middle Ages that Christianity, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, became a political power in western Europe. A leader called a bishop headed each major Christian community. By the A.D. 500s, the bishops of Rome, now known as popes, became the leaders of the Catholic Church." Eastern Orthodoxy was, “not under the leadership of the popes in Rome, but rather the emperors in Constantinople.” (Our World Today: People, Place and Issues, Boehm, et. Al, Glencoe/McGraw-Hill (2003), page 241, section "The Rise of Christianity")
See these articles for more information:
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/07/biblical-evidence-against-apostle-peter.html
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/04/evaluating-roman-catholic-claims-of.html
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-historical-development-of-papal.html
You are unteachable. Take your false teachings elsewhere.