Tuesday, March 27, 2018

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE CHURCH AT ROME?


It has been said that the epistle of Romans, written by the apostle Paul, is one of the greatest and most sublime books of Scripture.  It is his masterpiece.  It is one of the most profound and influential books ever written.  This book is called “Romans” because it was, of course, written to the first-century church (that is, the assembly of Christians) in the city of Rome. 
   
It is a unique book, at least partly because no other book in the Bible deals specifically, and at such great length, with the doctrine of justification like this book does.  As we have said before, when discussing justification, this is the book to which one must go.  It does not deal with justification only as a passing reference, but in great detail.  All other references to justification should revolve around this context, namely, chapters three through five of Romans. 
 
Again, this message was written to the early Roman church.  But the church that most people identify as the Church of Rome today is the Catholic Church, or the Roman Catholic Church, headquartered in the Vatican.  But the “gospel” of the modern Roman Catholic Church is not the same gospel as that of the first-century assembly of believers to whom the apostle Paul wrote in Rome.  The gospel that Paul delivered has the power to save:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith. (Romans 1:16-17 - KJV)

Notice that the just “shall live,” i.e., shall obtain eternal life and make it to Heaven – by his faith, rather than by his works.  Paul goes on into the next few chapters to make this concept abundantly clear.

But the gospel of modern Rome is “faith plus works equals salvation.”  It seems to ignore the clear message that Paul stressed 2000 years ago:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Romans 3:28)

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.  But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5)

Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: (Romans 4:6 - NASV)

Justification happens that first moment when a man recognizes his desperate spiritual need, when he surrenders to God, and allows Him to change his heart.  At this point he is made right with God.  He is now eligible for Heaven.  Although the man will now go on to do good works, notice that justification is APART FROM the merit of any of those works.  It cannot be any clearer from the passages above.

So, again, the “gospel” of the Catholic Church (modern Rome) is not the one that Paul shared with the original church in Rome.  The Catholic gospel does not have power to save, since it’s power depends (at least partially) on the works of the individual striving for salvation.  This causes a man to trust in his own labor to “help” Jesus save him.  But Jesus doesn’t need any help from us.  There is nothing that we can do to “supplement” His work.  It is utterly blasphemous to think that His work is lacking in any way.  In saying this, they are denying the full atonement of Jesus Christ.   Remember, we (corrupt mankind) are the very reason that He had to go to the cross in the first place! 
No, His suffering and work on the cross is fully sufficient (all by itself) to redeem us. 
 
Whatever happened to this critical, foundational teaching given to the church of Paul’s day at Rome?  Somewhere along the way, something seriously went wrong.  Paul’s message was changed.  Mostly because man wants to take credit where he should not.

But note this claim from the Catholic Church.  According to the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, titled “Dei Verbum,” the task of the Catholic Magisterium concerning the Word of God is:

“…guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully…” (chapter 2, paragraph 10)  See also CCC #86.

But have they really guarded Paul’s original sacred message, the inspired gospel of Jesus Christ?  Are they “explaining it faithfully” today?  Indeed not.  Once again, what the Catholic Church is telling us today is not what Paul told the church at Rome back then.  What we have is a different and unbiblical message from modern Rome.  

The word “gospel” means “good news.”  And Paul’s words concerning justification are indeed good news.  They can be summed up in this way: Jesus Christ is powerful and His work is absolutely sufficient.  He has mercifully and graciously paid the full penalty for sin on the cross, so man doesn’t have to attempt to work his way into Heaven.  He doesn’t have to wonder if he did enough good deeds or earned enough “brownie points.”  He doesn’t have to worry about whether his good works outweigh his bad works.  He can rest assured of his salvation by simply maintaining his faith, by trusting only in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. 

The great apostle Paul had quite a resume concerning his religious achievements.  But his resume meant nothing when it came to meriting salvation!  He considered all his achievements as dung (Philippians 3:4-9).  Even Paul did not trust in his works, so how much more should we avoid trusting in ours? 
 
On the other hand, the “gospel” of modern Rome is another gospel, with another Jesus, and another spirit (2 Corinthians 11:4).  The poor faithful member of “Holy Mother Church” serves a weak Jesus who is not able to fully pay sin’s penalty, and the Catholic therefore needs to “cooperate with the grace of God” by maintaining his duty to perform the sacraments – and it is indeed by his works that he must merit eternal life (Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter XVI).  Talk about bad news! 
 
To make matters worse, he is also surrounded by a multitude of unbiblical teachings from his leaders.  Yet, one of his leaders (Pope Pius X), in an official Catholic statement says that the Catholic’s “one duty” is to obey his leaders [apparently, no matter what they teach] (Vehementer Nos, paragraph 8). 
 
Conclusion

We would encourage everyone from ANY church (whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) to do what the Bible says and test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21) with Scripture.  That even includes testing what your own church teaches. 
 
The ancient Roman church of the first century had it right.  But somewhere along the way, that simple gospel message got corrupted.  Although they try, the modern Roman church cannot rightfully claim to be the historic Christian church.  Because of their many false teachings, they are disqualifying themselves as the church that “guards” and “faithfully explains” the Word of God.

By the way, there is no group today that can rightfully claim that they are the original, or first, Christian church.  The best they can do is to be faithful followers of the original church’s teachings found in God-inspired Scripture.

We will end on this point.  The Judaizers were another group that Paul contended with.  And they were committing the same error as the Catholic Church - the error of adding their works to the cross (Acts 15:1, 5).  And Paul strongly condemned them:

But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 - KJV)

For more info. on Rome’s weak view of the work of Christ, see this link:



52 comments:

  1. To all the faithful readers of this blog,

    Please forgive me, because I accidentally deleted many, many of the comments on this blog (affecting many of the articles), and I don’t think that it is possible for me to retrieve them. I certainly would if I could.

    There were many great comments and I sincerely apologize to everyone whose comments are now gone. Once again, please forgive me, and please don’t let this hinder you from commenting in the future. Thank you all for your understanding and for the great comments you have shared before, helping to make this blog more interesting.

    Sincerely,
    Russell

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  2. Hey Jesse,

    It was a stupid mistake. Wasn't paying attention. Hey, by the way, I need to send you an email about something.

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  3. Russell,

    The one inconsistency that defeats all your objections to the Roman Catholic Church is your denial of eternal security--to say that Christ paid for your sin and took your punishment but that can change due to loss of salvation is contradictory. Any thoughts?

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  4. Hello Tim,

    Sorry for the delay, but I’ve been pretty busy.

    I’m a little confused about your comment, since the Catholic Church does not even believe in eternal security (i.e., once saved, always saved). So how does this “inconsistency” defeat my objections concerning the Catholic Church?

    By the way, are you Catholic?

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    Replies
    1. The Church of Rome is still here. Just read Romans 2:6-13.

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    2. Russell,

      What is the difference between hope and assurance?

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    3. Tim,

      A quick check in any dictionary will tell us that hope is a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen, or grounds for believing that something good may happen. Assurance is a positive declaration intended to give confidence; a promise, confidence or certainty.

      But what is your point? What is the reason for asking this?

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  5. We disagree on the understanding of grace and on justification itself. Works are a product of Grace, our Lord taught us in the gospels that without him we can do nothing, so its simply through His grace that we are able do works so its not through our effort but His grace. You are suggesting that we should not cooperate with grace?
    Works of love are necessary for salvation:


    "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."kjv

    We need the context of the whole bible to understand this matter properly.

    1 Corinthians 12-13 shows us the gifts from Holy Spirit, among them faith, hope and love are included the point being we do not earn faith either its a gift from God so is love. And love is greatest read chapter 13 even with the greatest faith to move mountains without love you are still nothing.

    lets go to St Peter,
    "love covers a multitude of sins"
    according to you Jesus covers everything so why do we need love to cover our multitude of sins when faith took care of everything?

    Lets move on to James who is so clear faith without works is dead, this expression alone says a lot, recall St Paul said the same thing in other words you may have faith which moves mountain but without love you are nothing.
    St James ask a rhetoric question
    James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    Can it save him? And he goes on

    James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    It is through works that our faith is perfected,in the context of St James where our faith becomes alive not remain dead.
    2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    So does a dead faith save?

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  6. Romans 4:4-5 does not contradict works done through the grace of God, those we do for the love of God and neighbour not through vain glory and pride.

    For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Romans 3:28) totally agree we do not do works of law. Faith to us is not just intellectual it includes the readiness to obey and do what the faith teaches, and our faith teaches principally that we should Love God and Love your neighbour.

    Is it a weak view of Christ to believe that I who cannot do a thing by myself except sin I can do anything with Christ even to great heights of holiness. We think highly of Christ not lowly as you think

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  7. Hello Anonymous,

    I have to say that I agree with a lot of things that you said. But there is still much misunderstanding.

    You said:

    “You are suggesting that we should not cooperate with grace? Works of love are necessary for salvation:”

    But the way that we should “cooperate” with God’s grace for salvation is by SURRENDERING to him. Let me give you an example:

    Suppose a man has an extremely life-threatening condition and needs immediate surgery. The sick man wants to “cooperate” with the doctor by holding the necessary utensils for the doctor during his surgery, or by telling the doctor how to do the surgery, or by holding the scalpel along with the doctor as he makes the necessary incision. But that would be ridiculous. That would only make it far worse. The way that the sick man needs to truly “cooperate” with the doctor in saving his life is by shutting up, keeping still (usually under anesthesia) and letting the doctor do his work unhindered.

    That is similar to the way we need to comply with God / Jesus in our salvation. The work has already been done, the price has already been fully paid and He doesn’t need our “help.” The things that we do (good works) AFTER our “surgery” (i.e., salvation) will come quite naturally if our salvation is real. Works of love are not “necessary for salvation” in the sense of CAUSING it, but good works are the RESULT of salvation… if our faith is real.

    You said:

    “…according to you Jesus covers everything so why do we need love to cover our multitude of sins when faith took care of everything?”

    You are confusing two things here: 1) obtaining salvation from God [corresponding to “Jesus covers everything”], and 2) our responsibility (as believers) to love people in spite of their sins [corresponding to our covering a multitude of sins]. The first is exercising faith, which is simply a passive act from the heart to surrender to God, allowing God to work in us, and the second mandates that we exercise love (and good works) toward someone else. I believe that your point is, “Why do we need love if faith does it all?” But, again, the first point above is about getting saved, and the second is about the life we live AFTER salvation.

    You mentioned James 2:14 and 2:22, but the context of James’ topic is not about “how to get right with God (salvation),” but “how do we demonstrate true faith?” We’ve covered this many times in this blog. Just type in “faith alone” in the search bar at the top left and you can find out how this is dealt with.

    You mention Romans 4:4-5, and you say that this doesn’t contradict “works done through the grace of God.” But you haven’t dealt with this passage at all (as is common with Catholics). What exactly are these passages saying (Romans 3:28, 4:4-5, and 4:6)? What does “apart from works” mean? These passages do not just pertain to “works of the Law” in the Old Testament, if that’s what you’re getting at.

    And yes, Catholicism has a WEAK view of Christ. You cannot maintain the Catholic view of Christ’s atonement and claim that you think highly of Him!

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  8. I want to understand the faith alone position so i have these questions may you kindly answer them fairly. About the verses from Romans i am still praying and studying them, will get back to you.

    if you sin do you loose your salvation or you do not? What is your position with regards to sin after being "saved". Is it the once saved always saved position.

    if you believe that faith is a once off thing, OSAS then why do we need to perfect the faith as indicated in James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    You said that St James is just talking about the demostration of faith to others.
    But it seems to me that after he says his faith was perfected by works and the scriptures were fulfilled then it was counted to him as rightousness, it was only through perfection of his faith that he was called a friend of God

    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    So can we conclude that works are only for demostration to people, yet James makes a case that he was justified before God as well and that is the moment he became a friend of God.

    If we read from Genesis how many times did Abraham believe God and got saved, the point where he left the his original home or the point he believed God and obeyed to sacrifice his son? Abraham was demostrating to whom his faith?


    Last question, where is the boasting in doing works which one can do only through grace? For we believe that we can do only good works through grace, we do not try to help Jesus to save us but it his grace which helps us to do all things. So for me there is no boasting its just cooperation.
    Thats why Paul would say i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, could he boast in all those things he did.

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  9. Sorry some other questions

    You are saying that good works are a result of a true faith, so does it mean works come from faith not from Grace as catholics believe?

    Concerning the verse from Peter you have managed to confuse me there.

    1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

    Explain your point further. My question is, since you are saying all our sins are covered by Jesus why does he say love covers a multitude of sins?

    Is it not the same issue that Christ teaches the woman who washes her feet.

    Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

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    Replies
    1. Hello Anonymous,

      (Part 1 of 2)

      You said:

      “if you sin do you loose your salvation or you do not? What is your position with regards to sin after being "saved". Is it the once saved always saved position.”

      As I’ve said before, there are too many warnings to Christians (and even Christian leaders) in the Bible to allow for the “once-saved-always-saved” doctrine, so we don’t subscribe to that.

      What about sinning after salvation? Well, we ALL sin daily and there is no such thing as “sinless perfection” for Christians, no matter what anyone says. 1 John 1:8-10 says:

      “If we say that we have no sin, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, and his word is not in us.”

      So, the issue is that we all still sin. But when we sin, all is not lost. Someone explained it this way: It is as if we are on a boat. When we sin, it is like falling while still on the boat, while still on deck. We stumble on board, but we humbly ask God for forgiveness, brush ourselves off, and go on. But if a person hardens his heart to the point of no return, i.e., a total rejection of Jesus Christ, then this would be similar to falling OVEROARD on our hypothetical boat and perishing. In this case, he would lose his salvation. But this usually only happens over a period of time, not overnight. We are not “unsaved” as soon as we sin, but we do need to be quick to repent and ask forgiveness.

      You said concerning James 2 and Abraham:

      “It was only through perfection of his faith that he was called a friend of God.”

      Once again, the context clearly is about DEMONSTRATING that one’s faith is a true faith, and not just talking about it. That’s what this “perfecting” of Abraham’s faith is about. The book of Romans also speaks VERY CLEARLY about Abraham’s faith, and it says that it was through his BELIEVING that he was reckoned as righteous (Romans 4:3) and again in 4:5 that it was his FAITH that counted as righteousness, not his works. It was apart from the merit of his work. Catholics just never seem to be willing to deal with these passages.

      And concerning James’ use of the word “justified” in 2:24, he uses it in the sense of VINDICATION. See this link:

      http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/01/faith-alone-part-2.html

      You also said:

      “If we read from Genesis how many times did Abraham believe God and got saved, the point where he left the his original home or the point he believed God and obeyed to sacrifice his son?”

      The Scriptures don’t tell us exactly the time of Abraham’s point of salvation / justification, but I believe that it was probably about the time of God’s calling him out of his country (Genesis 12:1), since he was obedient way back then. As far as we can tell, this was the first time that God made a promise to Abraham. This promise was simply reiterated in Genesis 15:6, when God tells him that his faith was counted for righteousness. Abraham was not justified here, at this point in time, but earlier, like I just said. Also, it never says that he was “justified” (in the sense of being saved) when he offered Isaac on the altar. It simply says that he did it by faith (Hebrews 11:17).

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    2. Anonymous,

      (Part 2 of 2)

      You also said:

      “Last question, where is the boasting in doing works which one can do only through grace? For we believe that we can do only good works through grace, we do not try to help Jesus to save us but it his grace which helps us to do all things. So for me there is no boasting its just cooperation.”

      But if justification is by works on ANY level, man will boast. Catholics keep dancing around Romans 3, 4, and 5, but you still need to deal with the fact that justification is done APART from the merit of our works.

      And yes, our works come from God’s grace, but SO DOES EVERYTHING ELSE that comes from God. It is ALL by grace. The very air that we breathe comes from God’s grace, but that doesn’t mean that the air we breathe save our souls, does it? Just because it comes from God doesn’t mean that it is salvific.

      You said:

      “My question is, since you are saying all our sins are covered by Jesus why does he say love covers a multitude of sins?”

      Anonymous, as I already said in my previous comment, the covering of a multitude of sins is about Christians forgiving other Christians of sins against each other:

      “And above all things have fervent charity AMONG YOURSELVES: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8)

      Certainly, no one is saying that love is not important. It definitely is. But when it comes to salvation / justification, God (through Paul) specifically says that it is by faith, and NOT our works.

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    3. Thanks gentlemen for opinions. However the context you are talking about i am not seeing it, vindication before men. I cannot see it esp of the following verses:

      James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

      There is no justification before men there to support your case.

      About the verses from Romans i am still researching on the words "Apart from the works of Law" after i am done i will surely share with you my findings. I think the word apart is confusing

      I think so far we are just dancing around each other's questions with no real answers.

      Thanks for your time.

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    4. Anonymous,

      It is terribly unfortunate that you isolate the passage of James 2:21-24 from its surrounding context and assign to it a meaning that simply does not belong there. Furthermore, your interpretation of that particular text flatly contradicts many other passages of Scripture that emphatically state that justification is completely unmerited (Romans 4:2-8; 1 Corinthians 3:10-15; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-7). No disrespect intended, but I think that the only one dancing around arguments here is you.

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    5. No isolation there gentleman i am trying understand those passages as the Author intended them to be understood not as you understand them. You should be careful my interpretation flatly contradicts your interpretation of other passages of scripture you mentioned.

      This arguiment has not been answered well, James is clear, Works perfected Abraham 's Faith i did not get a clear response what that exactly mean if we are justified by Faith Alone.

      //Once again, the context clearly is about DEMONSTRATING that one’s faith is a true faith, and not just talking about it. That’s what this “perfecting” of Abraham’s faith is about.//

      This is the answer i got and it raises more questions on the verse, does it mean when you are demostrating your faith to people you are perfecting your faith in the process or the faith is already perfected at the moment you are justified, perfected means something else in that context. Why would it matter so much that man must be justified before men?

      Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

      He begins the process and completes it. James tells us that He does that through works.

      Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
      Salvation is to those who obey Him.
      Even the definition of Faith which is ommitted in these discussions point one fact that Salvation is not something we have, its in the future thats we hope for it.Hebrews 11:1.
      Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life
      Why do i need to continue to seek what i already have? Eternal life? By well doing?

      Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

      You see if you do not answer questions with clarity many questions will arise.

      And it brings me to another question, you are all practically using an interpretation from Romans to intepret James, what if the interpretation of Romans is wrong, it means you are coming to James with a fixed position. In other words you are coming to James trying to effect an outcome instead of listening, which is exactly what i am avoiding.

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    6. Well, now you are simply speaking past everything that we (i.e. Russell and I) have said this far. But let's get down to business, shall we?

      "Why would it matter so much that man must be justified before men?"

      If our lifestyles are not correspondent to our religious profession, then surely, one must wonder whether are worldview is truly livable. Secondly, we should know better than to act hypocritically. We shall know people by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).

      "He begins the process and completes it. James tells us that He does that through works."

      Wrong. Christ keeps us in by the same way that we entered: faith (Galatians 3:1-3). He absolutely completes our salvation, thereby eliminating the possibility of us meriting our salvation by good works. James 2 simply tells us that we must demonstrate the reality of our faith through our works. Salvation is by faith alone, but is never alone. That describes sanctification, not justification.

      "Even the definition of Faith which is ommitted in these discussions point one fact that Salvation is not something we have, its in the future thats we hope for it. Hebrews 11:1."

      Yes, Christians are to have hope in seeing their beloved Savior. Hope is faith that points into the future. In other words, we yearn and desire to be in complete restoration and unity with Christ Jesus in heaven. Those who endure to the end are the ones who have a genuine relationship with Him.

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    7. Jesse you doing the same thing, speaking past everything i have said but thanks anyway.

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    8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  10. Greetings Anonymous,

    A.) On eternal security/assurance of salvation:

    Here are some articles on the subject:

    https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-assurance-of-salvation.html

    https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/11/biblical-assurance-of-salvation.html

    Assurance of salvation is not presumptuous certainty:

    "But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God." (1 Corinthians 4:3-5)

    B.) James 2:

    Works and faith do complete each other--works/changed life are the evidence, not the cause, of a saving faith in Christ.

    A faith that saves is a faith that obeys. Justification is by faith alone, but is never alone. It will certainly be accompanied by good works.

    Abraham was justified in the sight of God because his heart was truly changed. God examines the heart. See 1 Samuel 16:7.

    C.) Good works and boasting:

    From the biblical standpoint, works are absolutely excluded from justification so that no boasting can happen:

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    This is not a matter of "having enough grace" to do good works, but rather that any standard of righteousness that does not conform exactly to God's perfect standard falls short by an infinite margin.

    If we can merit salvation by our own efforts, then we do not need Jesus Christ. That is offensive to Him. You can't have it both ways (Romans 11:6). Either God pays your debt entirely, or you can "pay" your infinite debt by suffering for eternity in fiery torment.

    The Apostle Paul says in Philippians 4:13 that he can ENDURE all things (for example, persecution) because of the grace that the Lord bestows upon him, not that he could merit salvation in part by works. This is a matter of sanctification and perseverance, not justification.

    D.) Sins being "covered" by love:

    You misinterpret Scripture:

    "Most importantly, love each other deeply, because love will cause people to forgive each other for many sins." (1 Peter 4:8, New Century Version)

    The foundation upon which God's law stands is love (Matthew 22:36-40), and it is out of His love for us that He sent His begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to atone for sin (John 3:16). It is out of His love for us that He provided a remedy for our sin.

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  11. Hi Jesse,

    Appreciate the input. Great job on the links you provided. I hope that “Anonymous” will avail himself to these.

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  12. By the way, I am not really familiar with this whole "justification before God" and "justification before man" business. Don't really know what that means, anyway.

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    1. Hello Jesse,

      Concerning justification “before men,” this is simply exercising your true faith, evidenced by good works, so that MEN can know you have faith.

      Catholics like to say that James 2 is about “getting justified,” or saved, by your works. And, of course, we Protestants will say that James 2 is about proving or demonstrating your faith, it’s not about “how to get saved.”

      But Catholics will point to Abraham sacrificing Isaac and say, “See, Abraham and his son were ALONE, and no man was there to see Abraham’s work, or see him proving he had faith!” But I would say that there was indeed someone there to see Abraham’s work… Isaac, of course. But not only that, this was recorded in Scripture so that multitudes could see Abraham’s faith, century after century, and we can rightly call him the father of our faith, and be encouraged to believe God like he did.

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    2. Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining what justification before men means.

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    3. Jesse,

      No problem! Hey, did you get my email I sent you?

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    4. Yes, in fact, I sent you a reply. Did you get those?

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    5. Jesse,

      Ok, yeah, I received it.

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  13. Hello Anonymous,

    You said:

    “There is no justification before men there to support your case.”

    Again, in this case, “justified” means vindicated (v. 21, 24), or proven. There are other places in Scripture where “justified” is used in this same sense of vindication (e.g., Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:29, 10:29, and 16:15). The CONTEXT of James 2 makes this idea abundantly clear:

    “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.”

    Notice James’ contrast (paraphrased):

    “YOU SAY you have faith… so SHOW ME your faith! I will prove that I have faith by DEMONSTRATING it through good works. If you don’t have good works, then you don’t really have true faith.”

    Again, it’s about proving your faith TO MAN. God already knows whether you have faith or not. But men cannot tell that you have faith except by your fruit (works), as Jesus alluded to (Matthew 7:20). This is also what James is talking about. This is not “just my opinion.” If a person can’t see this, he is deliberately blind.

    And if Abraham was actually saved by his works, then the apostle Paul had to be LYING in Romans 3, 4, and 5, and you’re turning these verses on their head - and that is a dangerous position.

    You also said:

    “I think the word apart is confusing.”

    This should not be confusing here to anyone. Romans 4:6 says “God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT works."

    This word (without) in the Greek means “without,” “separately,” “apart from,” or “by itself.” This is not rocket science. It shouldn’t be confusing. I suspect that maybe you’re not seeing it simply because it goes against Catholic teaching.

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  14. Anonymous,

    Before we go any farther, tell us, what is your name? And have you ever commented on this blog under other names? And if so, what were those names?

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    1. Is it a problem if i remain unknown i do not like drawing attention.

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    2. The Scriptures inquire, "And who is the Rock except our God?" (Psalm 18:31). But Roman Catholics exclaim, "Peter!" Nuff said.

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  15. No, Anonymous, you love drawing attention to yourself. That’s why you’re so contentious. But your desire to remain anonymous exposes and condemns you.

    We know who you are. You have posted before as “Perfect Mugwagwa,” “Thomas,” “Sipho,” “Aquinas,” as well as “Anonymous.” Long ago, when I first asked if you were someone who posted under a different name, you lied and said no.

    You are a liar and a deceiver. Not to mention, you refuse to see the simple truth that we set before you, over and over. If you disagree, just show some common courtesy and move on to some other forum. But you remain contentious. You deceived and lied, insulted us, and showed disrespect, and worse yet, you rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ. We want nothing to do with you. You make your own people (Catholics) look bad. I would strongly advise you to repent. May God have mercy on your soul.

    And, once again, you are banned from commenting on this blog.

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    2. Yeah, I know that you bite off more than you can chew, Aquinas. That is simply a consequence of pride.

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  16. Hey Russell,

    I am somewhat surprised to see that you have not employed texts such as Romans 9:11-16, 9:30-32, and 10:9-13 in your articles on Sola Fide. Romans 9 even says "not by works"!

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  17. Jesse,

    Yeah, these could also be used.

    Thanks for pointing it out.

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  18. How would you apply the two texts that I mentioned from Romans 9? I'm just curious.

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    1. Jesse,

      Romans 9:11-16, I would say, is not about salvation or justification. It is about one’s status in life. Note that this particular passage is about “one (son) serving the other” (v. 12). As examples, God has the right to cause one to be born of poor parents, and another to be born of a king. He has the right to cause one to be born cripple, and one to be born perfectly healthy. He has the right to cause one to be born in a rich country, and He has the right to cause one to be born in a third world country. This is about STATUS, not salvation (as Calvinists would claim).

      Romans 9:30-32 is indeed about salvation. It is about “attaining righteousness” (v. 30 and 31) and “seeking righteousness” (v. 32).

      So, they ARE different, but the latter we could use to defend Sola Fide (faith alone).

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  19. I think that the "not by works" passage of the Old Testament is Deuteronomy 9:3-6. See anything there? Maybe the message conveyed there can be paralleled with the New Testament passages like Romans 4:2-8, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, and Titus 3:5-7!

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  20. Hi Jesse,

    The gist of what God is saying here is: Hey, Israel, I love you and I’m going to do great things for you, but don’t think that I’m doing this for you because you are so righteous, but so that I can be glorified. I’m not doing this BECAUSE OF your righteousness, but IN SPITE OF your unrighteousness.

    So, yes, it seems to pretty much parallel the New Testament concept of our unworthiness and God’s free gift of HIS righteousness.

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  21. What is the Protestant reply to this vedio

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L14UNjaZJm8&t=49s

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  22. Hello James,

    Upon viewing the video in the link you sent, I’d have to say that I agree with much of what the video was saying.

    But, having said that, I take issue with the statement, “Justification does not change a person at all.” Maybe some of the Protestants in the video believe that, but that is not a true nor biblical statement. Justification is the very beginning of our Christian walk. It is the point when we are born again. It is when we realize the (spiritual) bankrupt state that we are in, and we acknowledge that we desperately need God and we allow God to change our hearts.

    It’s like dropping a red food coloring tablet in a glass of water. The moment that the tablet is dropped into the glass, this represents justification and a true change begins in the water. As time goes on (sanctification) the water becomes more and more red, but the very beginning was when the change started. Sanctification is a process; it may be a slow process sometimes, but it is real. Sanctification is the category in which our good works appear.

    All this video seems to do is (possibly) debunk Calvinism, which we do not ascribe to. It does not debunk Sola Fide (faith alone). A constant problem in Catholic apologetics on this topic is that Catholics ignore CONTEXT. See our articles on “faith alone”:

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/01/faith-alone-part-1.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/01/faith-alone-part-2.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/02/faith-alone-part-3.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/08/sola-fide-revisited.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/09/romans-213-and-context.html

    The video also mentions “Once saved, always saved,” but we do not believe that this is a scriptural concept, either.

    Concerning baptism, see these links:

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2015/05/on-baptism-part-1-few-basics.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2015/06/on-baptism-part-2-bible-verses.html

    http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2015/07/on-baptism-part-3-more-verses.html

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  23. I understand, so it means only the Calvinism adheres to Forensic justification or Alien Righteousness.
    Are you saying you do not believe in the Imputed Righteousness or Alien righteousness teaching, which some protestants claim to be at the heart of Sola Fide?

    What is the actual difference between your position and the Catholic Position. The Catholic position claims that when we come to God at the initial instance when we are still children of wrath we only come with faith and God sanctifies us, cleansing us of all of all sin and He makes us righteous. And it is this righteousness that we receive from God that we should mantain through good works or through asking for His forgiveness if we sin after justification.

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  24. James,

    You said:

    “Are you saying you do not believe in the Imputed Righteousness or Alien righteousness teaching, which some protestants claim to be at the heart of Sola Fide?”

    What I am saying is that I do, indeed, believe in an imputed righteousness from outside of us (i.e., from Jesus Christ). What I am DISAGREEING with in Calvinism is the statement (like I said before) that “justification does not change a person.” Justification DOES change a person. It is the BEGINNING of his change. Remember the red food coloring pill?

    You also said:

    “And it is this righteousness that we receive from God that we should mantain through good works or through asking for His forgiveness if we sin after justification.”

    I disagree with the part that says that we should maintain this righteousness “through good works.”

    We OBTAIN righteousness through faith, and we MAINTAIN righteousness in the same way… through faith:

    “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:1-3)

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  25. St. Paul’s teaching is precisely the teaching of the Catholic Church which is so beautifully expounded in the documents of the Council of Trent.
    Lets go back.
    1. The Council of Trent was gathered, in part, to respond to Luther’s errors. One of those errors was the doctrine of justification by faith alone. I think everyone here would agree with me on this point, right?
    2. Luther’s doctrine of faith alone is based primarily upon a misunderstanding of St. Paul’s teaching that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28). That is, in fact, why he added the word “alone” to that verse. I think the Catholics here would agree with me on that point also, right?
    Notice that the Council did not respond by juxtaposing St. James teaching of justification by faith and works against St. Paul’s teaching. No. Its almost as though they forgot all about it. But they didn’t. They merely ignored it. They realized that St. Paul was not here reiterating St. Jame’s teaching, which is also a valid teaching. The Council focused upon justification which occurs in Baptism (Trent 6, Ch. IV).
    Why?
    Because they realized that St. Paul was not talking about justification by faith and works, but about justification that occurs in the Sacraments. The washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Here is the teaching of the Catechism on the Sacraments:
    740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)
    1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.
    This is why later, the Council also says:
    CHAPTER VII
    IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
    This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

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  26. The causes of this justification are:
    the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, ….
    Luther’s sin was not in saying, “faith alone”. Many Catholics before him used that terminology, but they used it correctly. Realizing that we are justified by God in the Sacraments. Not by any work in our part.

    Luther’s error was confusing the justification which occurs in the Sacraments by faith apart from works, with the forensic justification by faith and works to which we will all be subject when we stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. He concluded that the new dispensation of Jesus Christ, by grace, eliminated the need to keep the Commandments in order to be just in the eyes of God.

    I know its a bit more complicated than that, but that is the way I summarize it.

    However, faith alone is not what St. Paul meant. Since he teaches that only they who do the law will be justified (Rom 2:13). He understands that God only sheds His mercy upon the righteous, folks (Ex 20:6; Tit 3:5; Rev 22:12-15).

    To summarize. St. Paul is right. We are not justified by our works. This is what St. Paul meant. The faithful man, who does righteous works, is justified by the mercy of God in the washing of regeneration which is the Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5; Trent VI, Ch. VIII).

    Those who do not do righteous works in accordance with God's will, are not included in the formula for salvation. They are in the group headed for condemnation (Matt 25:31-46).

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  27. Hello Anonymous,

    You said:

    “Because they realized that St. Paul was not talking about justification by faith and works, but about justification that occurs in the Sacraments.”

    No, Paul addresses justification in Romans, starting in the latter part of chapter three through about chapter five. And there is nothing whatsoever about sacraments in this context. In fact, Paul specifically emphasizes over and over that justification / salvation is through faith, and not by works. Sacraments are works and are therefore disqualified as the cause for salvation.

    Catholics seem to have a real issue with CONTEXT on this topic. It almost seems that you didn’t read the article at all.

    Anonymous, you also mentioned the “new dispensation of Jesus Christ, by grace, eliminated the need to keep the Commandments in order to be just in the eyes of God.” But there is nothing “new” about being saved by grace through faith. In the Old Testament, Abraham was saved in the same way that we are today – by his faith in God, apart from his works. Paul points out that God saved him BEFORE his circumcision (Romans 4:9-10). Why was that? Wasn’t circumcision a God-ordained work of righteousness? Yes it was, yet it did not save him because it is a work.

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