Sacred
Tradition is a really big deal in Catholicism.
It is one of the foundational “legs” on which the Catholic Church
stands. According to the Catholic
Church’s Vatican II document Dei Verbum:
“Therefore
both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.”
(chapter 2, paragraph 9, emphasis added)
In other
words, they are to be considered equal.
So if Scripture is infallible/God-breathed, then (according to them) so
is Sacred Tradition. One is not above
the other.
But is there
biblical evidence for this Catholic concept of infallible Sacred Tradition? Catholics will usually point to several
Scriptures to make their case, but they will turn to one particular verse more
than any other:
“Therefore, brethren,
stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word
or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
And
Catholics will say, “See, there it is.
We must obey BOTH the oral tradition (“… by word”) and the written
tradition (“… [by] our epistle,”), i.e., Scripture.
When Catholics
see the terms “oral” and “written” in this context, they treat it as though they
are two different (and equal) bodies
of information, and that we need BOTH of them to have the complete picture, God’s
word in two different forms. They see Tradition
as something outside of, and distinguishable
from Scripture, otherwise it is all just the written Word of God.
A Closer Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Ok, let’s
actually look at the context of this
passage to see what the apostle Paul is actually saying about this. Since this is the main and pivotal verse for
Catholic Sacred Tradition, we must make sure that we understand Paul. Here is the context:
In chapter
2, we see that the Thessalonians were disturbed about news they had received, i.e.,
they were “shaken” and “troubled” (2:2). Someone made them believe that the
Day of the Lord had already come upon them (v. 2), apparently through a letter,
falsely claiming to be from Paul. In
this second letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul goes on to calm their
fears and he reminds them that he had already told them in person (orally) all
about the timing of the Day of the Lord (v. 5) and that they need not worry. Then, after explaining it to them again in
this letter (v. 6-12), he says to hold fast to those traditions (those teachings
about the Day of the Lord that he first handed on to them) (v. 15), whether they received
them orally, or by writing. This is
important – Paul is telling them that the message he gave to them at the
beginning (orally) is the SAME message he was writing to them now! How could they have forgotten already? He did not give them two different messages, but the same one in two forms (written and
oral)! He is NOT telling them that we
don’t have all of God’s Word unless we have it in both written form and some
kind of oral form. This is where
Catholics deviate from Scripture.
Paul is
basically asking them, “Why are you so disturbed by this letter that was
supposedly from my hand? Any true letter
from me will agree with the message
that I already gave to you in person! I
will never contradict the original message I gave to you in person, just as I
would never give you a different gospel than the one I already gave to you
(e.g., Galatians 1:6-9).”
Paul’s
distinction between the two forms was NOT to emphasize a difference in content between the two, but the very opposite – to demonstrate the unity of his message in both forms. Catholics seem to think that the Word of God
is somehow emasculated if it is only
contained in infallible writing, but that is certainly not the case. The point Paul was making here was that you
can forever trust what Jesus and the
apostles have given you! His point was not that infallible revelation for the
church always has to be in two forms.
But the
content of this “oral” aspect of Sacred Tradition is now in question, and this
brings us to our main point…
For God’s Sake, Show Us What It Is!
Again, what
exactly was/is the content of this “Sacred Tradition”? The Catholic Church is more than happy to
point out the contents of their infallible seventy-three books of Scripture
(the written Tradition) to all who would ask.
But many (both Catholics and Protestants) have often asked about the
contents of this oral Sacred
Tradition, as well. But curiously, we
find that the Catholic Church is unable (or not so anxious) to expose the
contents of this “infallible” oral entity.
Oh sure,
they’ll give us some incredibly vague, hazy and imprecise “definitions,” for
example, it is said to be:
“… not
simply a collection of pious practices but the living transmission of Christ’s
teaching entrusted to the apostles and perpetuated in the Church under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit.” See here:
https://catholicus.eu/en/sacred-tradition-an-unchanging-pillar-of-faith-in-a-changing-world/
But how can
the person in the pew gain an understanding of such phraseology? It seems the Church is purposely being vague
when it talks like this.
According to
the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“This living
transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is
distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, ‘the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and
transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes…
’” (CCC #78 – emphasis added)
Any honest
person has to admit that this is just too nebulous to help anyone to know its
content.
Sacred
Tradition has also been called “the living and growing truth of Christ
contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and
common worship of the Church.” See here:
https://markpshea.com/archive_sheavings/what-is-sacred-tradition/
This is
simply more obfuscation.
According to
one other source:
“Catholic
Tradition is the living transmission of the faith…”
That tells
us absolutely nothing meaningful.
“…
encompassing teachings, practices and worship passed down from the apostles
through the church over centuries…”
Again,
nothing. Which practices/teachings/worship?
And how do we know they actually came from the apostles? It would sure help if the Catholic Church could
be more specific, especially if we
are talking about something that is supposedly infallible. Protestants are
not looking for examples of Sacred
Tradition, but the whole of it! Where exactly can this “infallible”
information be found? How can any generation
know that the correct information has been properly handed down to them if no
one can articulate exactly what it is?
One source
calls it an “unbroken transmission of
Christ’s revelation” and then names things that are/include non-infallible things (e.g., liturgy,
creeds, writings of the church fathers, spiritual practices).
These are
just a tiny sampling of the Catholic Church’s attempt at a usable definition of
Sacred Tradition. But none of these are
convincing. The Church is not being
transparent at all and these “definitions” are meaningless! They might sound good, but are absolutely
useless to help the common person understand what its contents actually are.
The Church Retaliates
Ok, when
pressed to provide a meaningful definition of Sacred Tradition, the Church will
often retaliate with comments like this:
- · “Where is ‘Sacred Tradition’ in the
Protestant faith?”
If
Protestant churches do claim some
kind of “Sacred Tradition,” they have the same obligation to show it as the
Catholic Church does. If anyone claims to have any kind of
Tradition, it is their
responsibility, their burden of proof
to show what it is. You can’t just say
something is infallible, and not even be able to tell us what it is!
- · Is this really the question for you Protestants… if we Catholics would
indeed actually show you the list of all Tradition, the real question is,
“Would you then become Catholic?”
Nice try,
but the answer is no. Asking the
Catholic Church to show us what Tradition is, is only the beginning of the work ahead of you!
Answering the “Tradition location question” is just the FIRST step! There are many, many more logical and
biblical issues to settle before any Protestant should even think about
becoming Catholic. By the way, I could
reciprocate and ask, “If you Catholics CAN’T show us this list, will YOU become
Protestant?
- · Your request is unreasonable! Sacred Tradition is not just a “static” entity
that can be “listed,” but is “living,” “unchangeable,” “dynamic,” and it is
something that is practiced and it develops over time. One priest said, “Asking for a list of Sacred
Traditions is a bit like asking, ‘What is culture and where can I find a list
of it?’ It is not that simple.”
Well, you
know what? Culture has nothing to do with infallibility, while this Tradition supposedly specifically does. If something is considered infallible, it
must be validly identified. The Catholic
Church certainly fails to do that!
They like to
claim that Sacred Tradition is the “lived experience” of the Church, but this
is far too broad a description. Let me
ask a question – Wouldn’t the pedophilia in the Catholic Church also be part of
the “lived experience” of many of its victims?
So, is THAT rightly considered part of Sacred Tradition, as well? After all, it is a real experience, isn’t it?
This frequently-used “lived experience” phrase is simply meaningless
when describing Sacred Tradition. There
were millions of “lived experiences” in the history of the church, many of
which were bad. The Catholic Church is
purposely deflecting the question of what its Tradition is and where it can be
found.
Let’s Be Honest
Ok,
Catholics, let’s be honest. If you
wanted some specific information from a Protestant, especially if it was claimed
to be infallible, and the Protestant answered you with such vague and
meaningless terms like the Church does, you would (rightly) accuse him of
deflecting or withholding the desired information. You would claim that he was simply
obfuscating and insulting your intelligence with such phrases.
And this is exactly what happens when Catholics tell
us that Sacred Tradition is “the living transmission of the faith,” or “the
common life, worship and teaching of the Catholic faith,” or “the unbroken
transmission of Christ’s revelation,” etc., etc. These are simply nebulous and meaningless
descriptions of something that is supposed to be equal to Scripture! The fact that you withhold any meaningful
description of this Tradition, shows us that you don’t really know exactly what
it is. Otherwise, you’d be glad to tell
us.
Conclusion
Does anyone,
especially the common man, have time to read/research 2000 years of church
history? Because it seems that this is
what it would take for one to have any clue of what “Sacred Tradition” is.
If Sacred
Tradition is THAT “living” and THAT “dynamic,” and THAT elusive and uncertain –
if it’s THAT hard to pin down, then we have an obligation to proclaim that no
such entity can claim, by any biblical standard, to be infallible.
When
Cardinal Guidi of Bologna pointed out to Pope Pius IX that his (the pope’s)
views on papal infallibility were not supported by Sacred Tradition, Pius
roared, “I AM TRADITION!” In one short
statement, the pope said out loud what everybody already knew: that Tradition,
in effect, is whatever the pope says it
is! But the corrupt and power-hungry
Pope Pius IX was at least more honest
about the definition of Sacred Tradition than the Church has ever been. Pius, in his private meeting with Guidi,
didn’t try to sugarcoat it or offer vague and nonsensical definitions, as we
see so many do today.
It seems
that none of the Church’s popes, councils, “infallible” documents, or its
modern apologists are able to convincingly identify this elusive and baffling
entity the Church calls Tradition.
Therefore, Sacred Tradition, a foundational claim of the Catholic
Church, suffers an identity crisis about which Catholics should be quite embarrassed.
When I pressed Catholics to give examples of these oral traditions one of them answered:
ReplyDelete2 Thessalonians 2:15 is not a general blessing or affirmation of oral teaching as opposed to written teaching, as if these are two separate teachings, in fact, no reference is made here to any unwritten “sacred tradition,” it simply refers to apostolic teaching, “from us.”
Paul was giving to them and us in writing what he previously taught face to face. The phrase “by word of mouth or by letter from us” refers to the same apostolic teachings, that what was spoken was also what was written.
This includes:
Apostolic Teaching: The core doctrines about Jesus Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and teachings, which Paul delivered both orally and in writing. This includes the gospel message and instructions on Christian living, as seen in his letters (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2).
Moral and Ethical Instructions: Practical guidance on how to live as a Christian, such as instructions on holiness, love, and community behavior (1 Corinthians 6:12-20, 13:1-13, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8, 5:12-22).
Liturgical Practices: Early Christian practices like prayer, worship, and the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:23-25), as well as proper behavior in worship, such as head coverings (1 Corinthians 11:4-16) and orderly participation in gatherings (1 Corinthians 14:26-40).
Eschatological Teachings: Specifically relevant to 2 Thessalonians, Paul likely refers to teachings about the second coming of Christ, the "day of the Lord," and events surrounding it, correcting misunderstandings in the community (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
LEARN TO READ THE TEXTS!!!!
What about this?
When I pressed Catholics to give examples of these oral traditions one of them answered:
Delete"2 Thessalonians 2:15 is not a general blessing or affirmation of oral teaching as opposed to written teaching, as if these are two separate teachings, in fact, no reference is made here to any unwritten “sacred tradition,” it simply refers to apostolic teaching, “from us.”
Paul was giving to them and us in writing what he previously taught face to face. The phrase “by word of mouth or by letter from us” refers to the same apostolic teachings, that what was spoken was also what was written.
This includes:
Apostolic Teaching: The core doctrines about Jesus Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and teachings, which Paul delivered both orally and in writing. This includes the gospel message and instructions on Christian living, as seen in his letters (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2).
Moral and Ethical Instructions: Practical guidance on how to live as a Christian, such as instructions on holiness, love, and community behavior (1 Corinthians 6:12-20, 13:1-13, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8, 5:12-22).
Liturgical Practices: Early Christian practices like prayer, worship, and the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:23-25), as well as proper behavior in worship, such as head coverings (1 Corinthians 11:4-16) and orderly participation in gatherings (1 Corinthians 14:26-40).
Eschatological Teachings: Specifically relevant to 2 Thessalonians, Paul likely refers to teachings about the second coming of Christ, the "day of the Lord," and events surrounding it, correcting misunderstandings in the community (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
LEARN TO READ THE TEXTS!!!!"
What the catholic said is in quotes. Yes, he said "Learn to read the texts"
Ok, Anonymous,
DeleteThanks for clearing that up. I just wanted to make sure of who was saying what.
I think I agree with most of what this Catholic person is actually saying here, if I’m understanding him/her correctly. The only thing that I would point out is that in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul was speaking here SPECIFICALLY about the Day of the Lord events, and not necessarily the core doctrines, moral and ethical instructions or liturgical practices.
If you don’t mind me asking, what was YOUR response to this Catholic?
I didnt respond him, but I would respond that they say they have the fullness of truth because they have the written tradtions and the oral traditions but when asked about the oral they only point to scripture. They say this oral tradition they possess is inspired and infallible and is also the word of God , but they never show it. They forcefully say we have to obey it, but they can say what it is. So they are making no sense.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteI agree whole-heartedly! Like you said, they say that you HAVE TO OBEY IT, but they can't tell us what it is! Pretty strange for something that is "infallible"!
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, is everything here in your comment the words of Catholics? I am not sure if your words are interspersed here as well. It is not clearly marked by quotes or anything. Who is it that’s saying “Learn to read the texts!!!!” – you or the Catholic? Just let me know if this whole thing is the Catholic response and I will get back to you. Thank you!
Hi Russell, I was glad to read this latest monthly post of yours.
ReplyDeleteTo me, Catholic “tradition” is all the extra-biblical teaching and practices that set it apart from a true biblical faith. As such, then, it would make sense to Protestants that none of it can be substantiated or validated to our satisfaction. (Indeed, it is Catholic “tradition” that caused me to reject Catholicism, once I actually read the Bible, as it was all clearly manmade add-ons to true Christianity.) Catholic “tradition” is not sacred at all--it is detestable--and it certainly is not equal to sacred Scripture, since it essentially stands in opposition to it!
When Paul speaks of “tradition” in 2 Thess. 2:15, he is referring to the teaching of the Lord Jesus passed to the apostles that then became part of Scripture--not things he made up on his own, which he then presented as God’s Word, like the RCC has blatantly done. The RCC cannot point to Paul’s words in their case, as their extra-biblical dogmas were created long after Paul wrote those words and the canon of Scripture was closed.
It is shameful that the RCC reveres their “tradition” as much as it does, as doing so demotes the faithful adherence to Scripture and keeps the true gospel of grace--smothered by all that dogma--from so many. In the end, Catholic “tradition” only serves to prove that Roman Catholicism is merely a religion and not the one true apostolic faith.
Thanks for your comment, Lorna. I agree, and it seems that much of this Sacred Tradition favors or leans toward uniquely-Catholic teachings.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe Roman Catholic Church invented the concept of "sacred tradition" so that it didn't have to find biblical support for its teachings.
ReplyDeleteRussell, your opening claim already shows that you misunderstand what Catholics mean when they speak of Sacred Tradition. You assume that “equal veneration” means Scripture and Tradition must be two equal piles of infallible sentences, as though Catholics believe in a second Bible floating somewhere outside the written text. But Dei Verbum never says that. It teaches that Scripture and Tradition transmit one apostolic deposit in two modes. Your interpretation reveals that you are critiquing categories you have not taken the time to understand. When you turn to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, you narrow Paul’s use of paradosis to a single eschatological lesson he previously gave the Thessalonians. But Paul uses the term elsewhere to refer to the ongoing body of apostolic teaching, not a one‑time reminder. Your reading is not supported by Greek usage, by the broader Pauline corpus, or by reputable exegetical scholarship. It shows that you are unfamiliar with how Paul actually uses the word “tradition,” and your argument depends on shrinking Paul’s meaning so you can avoid the obvious implication that Paul commands Christians to hold fast to binding oral apostolic teaching.
ReplyDeleteYou then insist that Paul’s oral teaching must be identical to his written teaching, but you never demonstrate this from Scripture. You simply assert it because your theology requires it. Catholic theology teaches that revelation is one, but its transmission is twofold. You collapse “unity of revelation” into “exhaustive textualization,” which is not a biblical claim. This is another example of you critiquing a position Catholics do not hold. When you demand, “For God’s sake, show us what it is,” you reveal that you think Tradition must be a catalog of sentences. But no Christian community before the 1500s ever understood apostolic teaching that way. Tradition is the living transmission of the apostolic faith—expressed in liturgy, creeds, sacramental practice, and doctrinal definitions. Your insistence on a list shows that you have not engaged the historical reality of how Christianity functioned for its first fifteen centuries.
You complain that Catholic definitions are “vague,” but the Catechism is precise within the theological framework it uses. The problem is not vagueness; the problem is that you do not understand the framework. You want Tradition to be a second Bible, but Catholic theology explicitly denies that. Your inability to grasp the definitions is not evidence of Catholic obscurity—it is evidence that you are critiquing a system you have not studied deeply. When you ask where the “exact content” of Tradition can be found, the answer is straightforward: the Magisterium. Sacred Tradition is not a loose cloud of ideas; it is the apostolic faith preserved and authoritatively interpreted by the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter. You want Tradition to be a book. Catholic theology says Tradition is the Church’s living memory of apostolic teaching. Your question is based on a category error.
You portray Catholic responses as evasions, but they are simply correcting your mistaken assumptions. You want Tradition to be a static list; Catholics explain that Tradition is the apostolic deposit preserved through the Church’s teaching office. You interpret this correction as deflection because you do not understand the underlying theological categories. This is not Catholic evasion—it is your unfamiliarity with the subject. Your “lived experience” objection, where you invoke pedophilia, is a textbook example of category confusion. Sacred Tradition refers to apostolic teaching, not anything that happens in the Church. You conflate moral failure with doctrinal transmission. This is not serious theological argumentation; it is rhetorical shock meant to distract from your misunderstanding. It demonstrates ignorance of what Tradition actually means.
ReplyDeleteWhen you claim Catholics “don’t know what Tradition is,” you overlook the fact that every major Catholic theologian—from Irenaeus to Augustine to Aquinas to Ratzinger—has written extensively on it. The problem is not that Catholics cannot explain Tradition; the problem is that you expect Tradition to be something it is not. You critique a caricature, not the real doctrine. This reveals that you have not engaged the primary sources with scholarly rigor. Finally, your conclusion that Tradition cannot be infallible because it is “hard to pin down” is not a theological argument but an expression of impatience. Difficulty does not imply nonexistence. The Trinity is difficult. The hypostatic union is difficult. Inspiration is difficult. And your quotation of Pius IX (“I am Tradition!”) is historically disputed and not found in any authoritative source. You use it because it fits your narrative, not because it is reliable. This shows a lack of historical rigor.
(Part 1)
DeleteHello Arnold,
Thank you for your comments.
You stated:
“You assume that ‘equal veneration’ means Scripture and Tradition must be two equal piles of infallible sentences, as though Catholics believe in a second Bible floating somewhere outside the written text.”
We could only wish that it was made up of “infallible sentences.” That way, it would at least be falsifiable. Asking for clarity is not an unreasonable request.
You said:
“But Dei Verbum… teaches that Scripture and Tradition transmit one apostolic deposit in two modes.”
Yes, and one is easily identified, while the other is not. That’s the whole point of the article. You can call it another “infallible mode” if you want to, but you need to be able to tell us clearly what it is, and its extent. Otherwise, it is an infallible vapor.
You said:
“When you turn to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, you narrow Paul’s use of paradosis to a single eschatological lesson he previously gave the Thessalonians. But Paul uses the term elsewhere to refer to the ongoing body of apostolic teaching, not a one-time reminder.”
But 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is indeed a specific reference to a single eschatological lesson as I pointed out in the article. And I never said that this is the only reference to Tradition/paradosis. Of course there are positive references of the term elsewhere, but we have to deal with each one in its own context to try and identify what exactly Paul is talking about in each case. You say that it is part of an ongoing body of apostolic teaching, but in some cases, Paul is somewhat ambiguous. If the apostle is not at least somewhat specific in identifying what he means when he says “tradition,” then we just have to accept the fact that it was intended only for the recipient to know. You can’t just insert your own thoughts here.
I think that it is quite arrogant of the Catholic Church to usurp these “Tradition” passages and say, “Oh, yeah, that was US (and only us) that Paul is referring to; it’s all about the Catholic Church!” This is absolute assumption and usurpation.
(Part 2)
DeleteSince the use of the term “tradition” is not always clear in Paul’s epistles, the burden is on the Catholic if he wants to prove that Paul was speaking of some infallible, unwritten “ongoing body of apostolic teaching” to somehow “aid Scripture.” By the way, do we even have an apostle’s words apart from Scripture? No, we don’t.
You wrote:
“You then insist that Paul’s oral teaching must be identical to his written teaching, but you never demonstrate this from Scripture.”
For the record, I never used the word “identical.” I said that it was the same message in the written and the oral. And it is indeed demonstrated in this very passage (v. 5). In the case of 2 Thessalonians 2:15, the oral and the written are the same basic message. I’m not saying that this is the case for the other uses of tradition in Paul’s letters. I was specifically referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, the very verse, the most popular verse, that Catholics assert as proof of infallible Tradition. But Paul is not requesting or requiring the “aid of Tradition,” as some Catholics think.
You said:
“When you demand, ‘For God’s sake, show us what it is,’ you reveal that you think Tradition must be a catalog of sentences. But no Christian community before the 1500’s ever understood apostolic teaching that way.”
Ok, so Sacred Tradition is not a “catalog of sentences,” but at least that would be a concrete example in identifying it. But Catholics will have to do a lot better than using the meaningless definitions they have used to explain to Protestants (and fellow Catholics) what it is.
And concerning the understanding of “apostolic teaching” before the 1500’s, I’ll trust the Scriptures to tell me what apostolic teaching is: the God-breathed teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles, not fallible men who came after the fact.
(Part 3)
DeleteYou said:
“When you ask where the ‘exact content’ of Tradition can be found, the answer is straightforward: the Magisterium.”
No, the answer is anything but straightforward! None of the Catholic definitions of Sacred Tradition are straightforward. But what you just admitted here lines up precisely with what I wrote in the article about Pius IX when he said, “I AM TRADITION!” The pope IS the Magisterium. And even if what you said at the end of your last post, i.e., that the story of Pius IX is “historically disputed,” the point still stands. The pope IS the Magisterium and Tradition is ultimately what he says it is. I think that this is the best and most meaningful definition I’ve seen so far. But Catholics don’t seem to want to admit this.
You stated:
“Your ‘lived experience’ objection, where you invoke pedophilia, is a textbook example of category confusion. Sacred Tradition refers to apostolic teaching, not anything that happens in the Church.”
I am aware that Sacred Tradition refers to “apostolic teaching,” but introducing ambiguous phrases like “lived experience” suggest something much broader. Does anyone even KNOW what the phrase means? I would think that anything and everything that happens in the Church throughout history is a “lived experience”! Again, this is simply purposeful vagueness.
There is plenty apostolic teaching in Scripture, but there is nothing in the New Testament that suggest that “lived experience” is part of any kind of infallible apostolic teaching.
You said:
“Your inability to grasp the definitions is not evidence of Catholic obscurity – it is evidence that you are critiquing a system you have not studied deeply.”
It seems that when Protestants disagree with Catholics, it is always because the Protestant “just doesn’t understand,” or has just not studied (fallible) church history, or the (fallible) fathers enough. But, it’s funny –when Protestants say that Catholics should go deeper into the infallible Scriptures to find the truth, that’s not acceptable to them.
"This reveals that you have not engaged the primary sources with scholarly rigor." This is a problem with almost everything his blog addresses. I look forward to a response to Arnold's comments.
ReplyDeleteWow, that's a well-researched reply!
DeleteThis reveals that you have not engaged the primary sources with scholarly rigor. So true.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations! You've decided to play the role of a cheerleader here. I'll be waiting for Russell's reply to Arnold as well, but he's got a life beyond the computer screen.
DeleteNot cheerleading at all, merely agreeing that Russell rarely engages with or even has any familiarity with primary sources and that is evident throughout his blog. In fact he is often dismissive of those sources.
DeleteThat's the kind of thing cultists routinely say when they get confronted with facts that contradict their deeply held beliefs. I have seen that sort of nonsense before.
DeleteNot sure what you are on about with the cultist remark. While we are at it when it comes to cheerleading, you may want to look in the mirror. As to to Russell's lack of use/knowledge of primary sources, he has admitted as much in his comments previously on this blog when the subject of early church father was brought into a discussion.
DeleteIt’s genuinely impressive how confidently you cite “he admitted it once somewhere” like that’s a primary source instead of just your favorite campfire story. And it’s even funnier watching you lecture someone about mirrors when you’re clearly terrified of what you’d see in yours.
DeleteJust one example, "I have not studied the fathers much and it is not my area of strong interest. I'll leave that up to others to study. To be honest, I think a person is much better off focusing on studying the Scriptures.". More out there if you spend some time researching his blog and his comments rather than playing defense for him with childish rejoinders.
DeleteAww, did I hurt your wittle feelings? It’s adorable watching you treat a simple “I haven’t specialized in that area” as if it magically validates your sweeping claims. It’s unfair to expect one guy to be an expert in everything, and it costs a fortune to build a library of credible sources across interrelated fields. You wouldn’t know anything about that, obviously.
DeleteBut if confusing “he hasn’t studied X deeply” with “therefore my narrative is correct” helps you cope, by all means keep proving you’re an idiot.
Jesse,
DeleteNo feelings hurt. You’re still dodging the actual point.
Russell openly said he has not studied the Fathers much and prefers people focus on Scripture instead. That’s not “I haven’t specialized in every sub-field.” That’s a deliberate choice by someone who routinely makes historical claims about what the early Church believed and practiced—especially claims aimed against Catholicism.
The writings of the Fathers are not some expensive rare-book collection. Nearly all of them are freely available online (CCEL, New Advent, earlychristianwritings.com, etc.). Anyone who wants to check the primary sources can do so in minutes. Choosing not to engage them while still pronouncing on early Christian history is a choice, not an unavoidable limitation.
If the counter-argument is simply “he doesn’t have to be an expert in everything,” fine—then he also shouldn’t treat his own limited reading as sufficient to dismiss centuries of primary evidence. That’s the issue. Everything else is just noise.
Anonymous,
DeleteYou’ve repeated that same quote so many times it’s starting to feel like you think it’s a mic‑drop, but it still doesn’t do what you need it to. Russell saying he hasn’t studied the Fathers much doesn’t magically make your interpretation correct, doesn’t validate your historical claims, and doesn’t turn your personal preferences into “scholarly rigor.” It just means he didn’t specialize in the exact corner of the field you’ve decided is the only one that matters.
And your big “the Fathers are free online” revelation is cute. Yes, they’re accessible. That doesn’t automatically make your reading of them authoritative, nor does it transform your argument from hand‑waving into substance. You keep pointing at the existence of sources instead of demonstrating that they actually support anything you’re asserting.
So until you show something concrete instead of recycling the same line and hoping repetition will make it profound, your point stays unproven, your criticism stays hollow, and your argument folds the moment someone stops nodding politely.
But if scrolling past a few PDFs makes you feel like you’ve ascended to the rank of Church historian, I’m sure the delusion is at least a comforting upgrade from your usual level.
My aguiments are way better than yours. You have no chance against me, ABSOLUTEY NONE. MY aguiments are more factual than you any day of the week.
DeleteHere’s the adjusted version:
DeleteJesse,
You’re still missing it.
I’m not claiming the quote is some automatic win for my side. I’m pointing out that Russell, who regularly makes historical claims about the early Church (especially against Catholic positions), has openly said he hasn’t studied the Fathers much, that it’s not an area of strong interest for him, and that he thinks people are better off focusing on the Scriptures instead. That’s his own statement.
The sources are free and easy to access. So when someone chooses to prioritize Scripture over the Fathers while still speaking as if he knows what the early Church taught, that’s worth noticing. You keep trying to turn this into “prove every Catholic claim from the Fathers right now or your point is hollow.” That’s not the issue I raised.
You’re free to disagree with my reading of the Fathers. But pretending Russell’s admitted preference and lack of study is irrelevant, or that free online access somehow doesn’t matter, is just dodging.
Listen, my arguiments are far better than yours. My arguiments are grounded in the teachings of Christ's Church which makes you a fool.
DeleteAnonymous, you keep treating that one quote like it’s the Rosetta Stone of online debate, but all it really proves is that you’ve built your entire argument on a single sentence you think everyone should salute. Russell saying he hasn’t spent his life buried in the fathers doesn’t magically turn you into the custodian of early church history, and it doesn’t give you a free pass to declare yourself the referee of what counts as “worth noticing.”
DeleteYou keep insisting you’re raising some subtle point, but the moment anyone asks you to back it with something concrete, you retreat into the same safe little corner: “That’s not what I meant.” Of course it isn’t. It never is. Because the second you have to produce actual content instead of commentary about content, the whole performance collapses.
Your "argument" isn’t deep. It’s just narrow. And you keep mistaking repetition for relevance.
And honestly, watching you crawl out of your cave one night, squint up at the moon like it owed you an explanation, and somehow end up getting mooned is the most fitting thing I’ve ever heard about you.
You're a MORON. The Bible is VASTLY more important as a body of literature than any of the church fathers. It is literally the backbone of the Western literary canon. The church fathers never would have developed their ideas without it.
Delete“I don’t have receipts, but trust me bro.”-Anonymous
ReplyDeleteToo many anonymous commenters here and I suspect one commenter impersonation.
ReplyDeleteWho cares? You seem to be obsessed with trying to nail your non-argument down my throat. The fact remains that you are just some creep.
DeleteAll right Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYes, I do dare to prioritize Scripture over the fathers. And for the record, Jesse is right about Scripture. It is not just A primary source, it is THE primary source. But you (and many other Catholics) just don’t care about that.
But the gig’s up. I know who you are, Perfect Mugwagwa, and you know that you have been banned from my blog several times before, and I want everyone to know that. Repent. You have proven yourself to be a constant trouble-maker, so don’t come back.