JOHN MARTIGNONI AND HIS THOUGHTS ON “BIBLE” CHURCHES

Today, we again visit Catholic apologist and speaker, John Martignoni, and we’ll take a look at his Newsletter #538.  In this issue, John addresses “The Problem with So-Called ‘Bible’ Churches.”

You can find the link here:

https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/758-the-problem-with-so-called-bible-churches-apologetics-for-the-masses-538

According to John:

“They say that all of their beliefs come straight from the Bible.  Sola Scriptura! is their rallying cry.  The Bible is their sole authority for what they believe and teach.  Or, they might say it’s their ‘ultimate’ authority or their only ‘infallible’ authority or some such thing… Regardless of whatever particular verbiage they use, it boils down to this: Protestant churches claim to take their beliefs and teachings on doctrine and morals straight ‘from’ the Bible.” 

He then says:

“… I realized that every church that claims Sola Scriptura as its most fundamental principle, and claims to take its beliefs and teachings straight from the Bible – well, every one of those churches, by claiming  to be a ‘Bible church’ – is, at the very same time, claiming not to be the church of the Bible.” (Emphasis in original)

So what in the world does he mean by this?

John then says:

“In order for the church to get its beliefs ‘from’ the Bible, the Bible would have to exist before the church did.  Yet, as we have seen, from the Word of God, the Church founded by Jesus Christ - the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide (John 16:13) - that Church existed before a single word of the New Testament was ever written!” (Emphasis in original)

And a little later:

“But here’s the thing.  The Catholic Church is not a ‘Bible’ church in the sense that we take our beliefs/teachings ‘from’ the Bible; it is, however, a ‘Bible’ church in the sense that we put our beliefs/teachings ‘into’ the Bible.  So, we are not a ‘Bible’ church; rather, we are the Bible Church…we are the Church ‘of’ the Bible.” (Emphasis in original)

So, basically, John is saying, “Why would anyone want to be in a church that takes its beliefs FROM the Bible when you can be in the Church who GAVE YOU the Bible?”

For starters, see this link that challenges this idea:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html

The Truth

Well, John, that all sounds great, but no, if you (Catholics) were THE Bible church, you wouldn’t have so many false doctrines, as demonstrated throughout this blog.

If you had the true gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), you would not be like the Judaizers (Acts 15:1, 5), who believed that Jesus died on the cross, but also trusted in their works to be saved, and added them to the cross of Jesus Christ.  You would steer clear of idolatry and stop praying to anyone other than God.  You would put away the shrines to Mary and speak out against the papacy and your ministerial priesthood, all of which are totally unbiblical.  And there are many, many other issues with which to deal.  I know that this is a lot for most Catholics to take in, but I must be blunt with you and tell you the truth (Galatians 4:16).  The time is getting late and we are nearer the Lord’s Return than ever before (Romans 13:11).  It is certainly not safe to have all these unbiblical teachings hanging over your head.  John, you’re deceiving many Catholics and you’ll have to answer to God for each of these souls.

Which Came First?

The question often comes up in Catholic/Protestant discussions: Which came first, the Bible or the Church?  John contends that we can have a Church without the Bible, but it is not possible to have a Bible without the Church.  But is this true? 

No, the church did not come first.  Many Old Testament Scriptures existed hundreds, and even thousands, of years before the church ever existed.  God has chosen to give us Scripture little by little over the centuries.  He then created the church, with those Old Testament writings as its foundation (Isaiah 53; Jeremiah 31:31-34; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 1:1-2).  And by His design, God then gradually added more Scripture (the New Testament) after the church was in place.  So, yes, the New Testament came after the church was born, but there was much Scripture which existed long before that.

Let’s Use the Term Correctly!

John says:

“Furthermore, who wrote the Bible?  Let me refine that by asking: Who wrote the New Testament part of the Bible?  Members of the Church.  Every author of a New Testament book was a member of the Church.  So, it is entirely accurate to say that the Bible came from the Church.”

John is playing word games here.  Yes, the writers of the Sacred Scriptures were all saved – that is, they were members of the church (the global assembly of believers).  But John, like many other Catholics, often uses “the church” to mean “only the leaders of the church,” i.e., the Magisterium.  In fact, they will use “the church” and “the Catholic Magisterium” as if the terms are fully interchangeable, but Scripture will not allow such a concept.  Like I said, Catholics, including John Martignoni, will often play fast and loose with biblical terms.

For example, in this newsletter, John says 1) “the entire Bible came from the church,” 2) “without the church, you don’t have the Bible,” 3) that church wrote the New Testament and gave it to the world,” 4) “that church vouched for the fact that the New Testament, as well as the Old, is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God,” 5) the church that gave us the Bible in the first place,” 6) the Church founded by Jesus Christ,” 7) the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide (John 16:13),” 8) a “Bible” Church in the sense that we put our beliefs/teachings ‘into’ the Bible,” and 9) the Church that serves as the authoritative witness that the books of the Bible are indeed the inspired, inerrant, Word of God.”

In all these instances, John is using the term to mean a Magisterium.

But none of these descriptions of the church are biblical.  None of these refers to the universal church, worldwide, nor do they simply refer to the local body of believers.  Rather, Catholics are referring to an unbiblical (and supposedly infallible) “Magisterium,” which Scripture knows nothing about!

Let’s get the definition of “church” right, once and for all.  The Catholic Magisterium is NOT the church.  Scripture never refers to the “leaders only” as the church – there is no such thing.  Again, Scripture only uses the term “church(es)” in two ways: 1) as the local body of believers (1 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:2; Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18, 3:1, 7, 14), and 2) as the universal body of believers, worldwide (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:17-18).  According to the Bible, there is no single person on earth who is head over the whole church, and there is no single body of certain believers over the whole church.

John continues:

“And since Israel is the Old Testament ‘church’ and the Church is the New Testament “Israel”, it is also fair to say that the entire Bible came from the ‘church’.”

Again, John is playing fast and loose with the term.  But Israel and the church are two separate entities.  Yes, they are both the people of God, but each group has a separate role to play in history. 

Same Doctrine?

But who was it that actually wrote the Bible?  Did any of these Bible authors (e.g., Matthew, Mark, John, Paul) claim to be Roman Catholic?  No, not one.  John, as many Catholics apologists do, is trying to force the teachings of these authors of Scripture into the mold of modern Catholicism, and it doesn’t work.  The teachings of the modern Catholic Church are not the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostolic authors.  John Martignoni conflates the two.

Conclusion

And John, for the record – on the one hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with men getting their teachings/doctrine from the Scriptures, which is what we are to be doing in the first place (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:15; 1 John 4:1).  You act as though those who do use the Bible for doctrine are some kind of second class Christians (or worse). 

But on the other hand, it IS wrong for anyone to claim that they are the only ones who have the fullness of the truth, especially with all the false doctrine the Catholic Church has.  John, no matter how you slice it, Scripture is not on your side.

You may say, “It’s not false doctrine, it’s just that you Protestants are using your own fallible private interpretation when reading the Bible!”  Well, we can get into that with my next scheduled post…

 

ARE CATHOLICS CHRISTIANS?

I remember as a child in elementary school going to one of my Catholic catechism classes.  We were reading from one of the books that we were using with the Catechism at the time, and this word kept popping up… the word “Christian.”  I was young and naïve and I asked the teacher what that word meant.  And she responded by saying, “It means Catholic.”  I didn’t know any better, but I kept that in mind over the years.  But later on, I realized that the two terms (“Catholic” and “Christian”) are certainly not the same thing.  A person can be a Catholic and not be a Christian, or he can be a Christian and not be a Catholic.  It seems that she was either ignorant of the difference, or she was just brushing me off.  Either way, as a catechism teacher, she should have been clearer.  At the very best, she failed to explain the correlation between the two terms.

Of course, the word “Christian” means a follower of Christ, a person who is saved – one who is serving God and headed for Heaven.  On the other hand, a “Catholic” is one who is a member of the Catholic Church, which is considered by most people a branch, denomination, or subset of Christianity. 

So, the question arises, “Are Catholics saved, are they Christians?”  I hear it often, but this question requires more than just a simple “yes” or “no.”  The answer to the question certainly has to be nuanced. 

The Heart Matters

Of course, the question can also be asked of Protestants – are they saved?  And of course, the answer is that some are and some aren’t.  The bottom line is that God looks at the heart.   It is not just being part of a certain group – just being a Lutheran, or Assembly of God, or Baptist, or Presbyterian, etc., doesn’t make one a true follower of Christ.  What does is a changed life/heart, one that is surrendered to God, believing and trusting in the work and suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross for salvation and trusting nothing else (John 3:16; Galatians 3:1-3). 

But What About Catholics?

The biblical requirement for salvation (articulated just above) is the same for everyone.  But Catholics believe that the requirement(s) for making it to Heaven are different than what some (or maybe most) Protestants believe. 

First and most important, Catholics believe in a “faith plus works” system to be saved (CCC #2068; #1129), just like the Judaizers did in the book of Galatians, but the apostle Paul harshly rebuked the Galatian church for starting to accept this false teaching (Galatians 1:8-9; 3:1-3).  Adding the merits of any kind of work/sacrament/suffering to the cross is a direct violation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, an attack on the very core of the Christian faith.  Faith, apart from the merit of works (Romans 3:28; 4:6; 4:4-5), is a non-negotiable condition of salvation. 

See this link on the concept of merit in Catholicism:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2022/02/the-concept-of-merit-in-catholicism.html

But this system of salvation through works is not the only problem with the teachings of Catholicism.  There are also many other false teachings in the Catholic Church, as well, as is demonstrated throughout this blog.

If a Catholic person truly trusts in Jesus and gets saved, it is vitally important for him to then embrace correct doctrine to maintain his faith, because doctrine can (and will) affect your relationship with God.  If one believes in any kind of false doctrine, this will skew his understanding of the nature, purpose and instructions of the God of the Bible.  And this can certainly put him in grave spiritual danger.  I personally believe that the less you trust in the tenets of Catholicism, the better off you are.  The longer you stay in this church, the more likely you will betray the Scriptures.  For a “more sure word” (2 Peter 1:19), you must stick to the principles of the Bible.

I often say that a Catholic can indeed be saved, but his salvation would be IN SPITE OF being in the Catholic Church, not BECAUSE OF IT!

God’s Grace and Man’s Accountability

God is so gracious and patient with us, even when we are being foolish and participating in an unbiblical church (whether Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise), but this kindness must not be abused or taken for granted (Romans 2:4).  There are probably many people in these churches today, honestly seeking for truth, and who are still innocent, not yet irrevocably tainted by one of these churches or its doctrines.  Perhaps they are there through no fault of their own, but how long can one be in one of these unbiblical churches before he is corrupted by the false doctrine taught within?

Only God knows that answer, but we should never put ourselves in that position to start with!  Each one of us is ultimately responsible for our own spiritual well-being.  The Bible tells us to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).  If we are already very familiar with the Scriptures, we are far more likely to find a good, Bible-based church.

Again, each believer is ultimately responsible for his own soul and no one will be able to say on Judgment Day, “Hey, I was just obeying the Church, like they told me I must do!  It is all THEIR fault if I believed the wrong things” (Romans 14:12; 2 Corinthians 5:10)!  I actually had a co-worker that told me this and she was very serious about it.  I tried to convince her otherwise, but she would not listen.

“But We have So Much in Common…”

In fairness, I want to say that the Catholic Church does have many teachings that are orthodox (i.e., generally accepted as right or true), for example, the resurrection, the doctrine of the Trinity, Heaven and Hell, and the Bible’s inspiration are things that Protestants and Catholics can agree on.

But I want to emphatically state that it is not how many teachings Protestants and Catholics have in common that matter most, but there are certain critical differences which corrupt the essential teaching of salvation that remove Catholics from biblical orthodoxy!

For example, I once heard a great analogy by Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason where he draws two small circles on a blackboard.  By one, he writes the word “aspirin.”  By the other, he writes the word “arsenic.”  He then asks the audience, “What do these two have in common?”  Greg points out that they are both small and they are both round, and they both start with the letter “a”.  Therefore, should we treat them the same, since they have more in common than they do differences?  Absolutely not!  The problem is obviously that one will cure your headache, but the other would kill you!  The point being that their one difference is far more important than any similarities they may have. 

And that’s how it is with the Catholic Church.  Even though Protestants may agree with them about some (or maybe even many) things, there are some teachings in the Catholic Church that are far too spiritually dangerous to embrace.  This fact greatly affects the answer to the question of “Are Catholics Christians?” 

Truth vs. False Doctrine

For those who would say that Catholics really are Christians, what exactly is it that convinces them of this?  Is it because that they are the largest single group in the world claiming to be Christian?  But we know that “majority rule” has not always been a good test for veracity.

Is it because Catholicism claims that they have a lawful and unbroken line of successors tracing all the way back to the apostles?  Most Catholics would say yes, but this has been shown to be false:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2017/08/those-nagging-gaps.html

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/12/apostolic-succession.html

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2025/02/the-mythical-chain.html

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-papacy-foundation-of-sand.html

Is it because the Catholic Church claims to have as its foundation/authority, a “three-legged stool” [i.e., 1) Scripture, 2) the Magisterium, and 3) Sacred Tradition]?

Many Catholics will say yes, but I find it interesting that 1) many of their teachings contradict the Scriptures, 2) there is no papal Magisterium in the New Testament, and 3) they vehemently claim to be true to the Sacred Traditions of the Church, yet they find it so hard to be able to tell us exactly what all this Sacred Tradition is.  See these links on Sacred Tradition:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2022/07/the-lonely-pilgrim-and-sacred-tradition.html

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2010/05/what-about-tradition.html

We could go on and on like this, but the main issue is that there are so many unbiblical teachings within the Catholic Church.

Also, I think that another problematic issue with the Church is the fact that Catholics love to invite outsiders to “Come home to the Catholic Church,” as though joining the Church is the ultimate goal of Catholic evangelism.  We Protestants don’t ask people to specifically pursue “Protestantism” or Lutheranism, or the Baptist Church, etc., but we usually invite them to have a relationship with Jesus.  No church institution is the final destination, but Jesus Christ is!

Conclusion

So, to ask the question again, “Can a Catholic be saved?”  Yes, he can be.  But let’s ask it in a different way: “Can a devout Catholic be saved?”  That’s a different question.  If the person is a devout Catholic and is unapologetically entrenched in the Catholic Church and refuses to let go of Catholic teaching (especially if he is presented with what the Bible teaches) – then the possibility of him being saved is greatly reduced.

I am not making an ultimate spiritual judgment here.  No one can absolutely conclude that a person (Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise) is eternally lost – only God knows their heart perfectly. 

Yet, God has given us (Christians) the ability to imperfectly see the state of a person’s heart through his actions and his fruit (Matthew 7:15-17).  For those who claim to be Christians, but do not have the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), or they are steeped in false doctrine, we must warn.  That is, we are obligated to prayerfully and lovingly point to the spiritual danger in which one may be living.  It is not an act of love to allow someone to continue down a road that will obviously lead to disaster!

We are obligated to let Catholics know that theirs is a false gospel.  And a false gospel certainly excludes one from true Christianity.

May the words of John, the prophet and apostle, be heeded:

“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” (Revelation 18:4)