Today, we again visit Catholic apologist and speaker, John Martignoni, and we’ll take a look at his Newsletter #538. In this issue, John addresses “The Problem with So-Called ‘Bible’ Churches.”
You can find
the link here:
According to
John:
“They say
that all of their beliefs come straight from the Bible. Sola Scriptura! is their rallying cry. The Bible is their sole authority for what
they believe and teach. Or, they might
say it’s their ‘ultimate’ authority or their only ‘infallible’ authority or
some such thing… Regardless of whatever particular verbiage they use, it boils
down to this: Protestant churches claim to take their beliefs and teachings on
doctrine and morals straight ‘from’ the Bible.”
He then
says:
“… I
realized that every church that claims Sola Scriptura as its most fundamental
principle, and claims to take its beliefs and teachings straight from the Bible
– well, every one of those churches, by claiming to be a ‘Bible church’ – is, at the very same
time, claiming not to be the church of the Bible.” (Emphasis in
original)
So what in
the world does he mean by this?
John then says:
“In order for
the church to get its beliefs ‘from’ the Bible, the Bible would have to exist before the church did. Yet, as we have seen, from the Word of God,
the Church founded by Jesus Christ - the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit
to guide (John 16:13) - that Church existed before a single word of the
New Testament was ever written!” (Emphasis in original)
And a little
later:
“But here’s
the thing. The Catholic Church is not a
‘Bible’ church in the sense that we take our beliefs/teachings ‘from’ the Bible;
it is, however, a ‘Bible’ church in the sense that we put our beliefs/teachings
‘into’ the Bible. So, we are not a
‘Bible’ church; rather, we are the Bible Church…we are the Church ‘of’
the Bible.” (Emphasis in original)
So,
basically, John is saying, “Why would anyone want to be in a church that takes
its beliefs FROM the Bible when you can be in the Church who GAVE YOU the
Bible?”
For
starters, see this link that challenges this idea:
https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html
The Truth
Well, John,
that all sounds great, but no, if you
(Catholics) were THE Bible church, you wouldn’t have so many false doctrines,
as demonstrated throughout this blog.
If you had
the true gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), you would not be like the Judaizers (Acts
15:1, 5), who believed that Jesus died on the cross, but also trusted in their works to be
saved, and added them to the cross of Jesus Christ. You would steer clear of idolatry and stop
praying to anyone other than God. You
would put away the shrines to Mary and speak out against the papacy and your
ministerial priesthood, all of which are totally unbiblical. And there are many, many other issues with
which to deal. I know that this is a lot
for most Catholics to take in, but I must be blunt with you and tell you the
truth (Galatians 4:16). The
time is getting late and we are nearer the Lord’s Return than ever before (Romans
13:11). It is certainly not safe
to have all these unbiblical teachings hanging over your head. John, you’re deceiving many Catholics and you’ll
have to answer to God for each of these souls.
Which Came First?
The question
often comes up in Catholic/Protestant discussions: Which came first, the Bible
or the Church? John contends that we can
have a Church without the Bible, but it is not possible to have a Bible without
the Church. But is this true?
No, the
church did not come first. Many Old
Testament Scriptures existed hundreds, and even thousands, of years before the
church ever existed. God has chosen to give us Scripture little by
little over the centuries. He then
created the church, with those Old Testament writings as its foundation (Isaiah
53; Jeremiah 31:31-34; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 1:1-2). And by His design, God then gradually added
more Scripture (the New Testament) after the church was in place. So, yes, the New Testament came after the
church was born, but there was much Scripture which existed long before that.
Let’s Use the Term Correctly!
John says:
“Furthermore,
who wrote the Bible? Let me refine that
by asking: Who wrote the New Testament part of the Bible? Members of the Church. Every author of a New Testament book was a
member of the Church. So, it is entirely
accurate to say that the Bible came from the Church.”
John is
playing word games here. Yes, the writers
of the Sacred Scriptures were all saved – that is, they were members of the
church (the global assembly of believers).
But John, like many other Catholics, often uses “the church” to mean “only
the leaders of the church,” i.e., the
Magisterium. In fact, they will use “the
church” and “the Catholic Magisterium” as if the terms are fully interchangeable, but Scripture will not
allow such a concept. Like I said, Catholics,
including John Martignoni, will often play fast and loose with biblical terms.
For example,
in this newsletter, John says 1) “the entire Bible came from the church,” 2)
“without the church, you don’t have the Bible,” 3) that church wrote the New
Testament and gave it to the world,” 4) “that church vouched for the fact that
the New Testament, as well as the Old, is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God,”
5) the church that gave us the Bible in the first place,” 6) the Church founded
by Jesus Christ,” 7) the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide (John
16:13),” 8) a “Bible” Church in the sense that we put our
beliefs/teachings ‘into’ the Bible,” and 9) the Church that serves as the
authoritative witness that the books of the Bible are indeed the inspired, inerrant,
Word of God.”
In all these instances, John is using the
term to mean a Magisterium.
But none of these descriptions of the church
are biblical. None of these refers to
the universal church, worldwide, nor do they simply refer to the local body of
believers. Rather, Catholics are
referring to an unbiblical (and supposedly infallible) “Magisterium,” which
Scripture knows nothing about!
Let’s get
the definition of “church” right, once and for all. The Catholic Magisterium is NOT the
church. Scripture never refers to the
“leaders only” as the church – there is no such thing. Again, Scripture only uses the term
“church(es)” in two ways: 1) as the local
body of believers (1 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:2; Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18, 3:1, 7,
14), and 2) as the universal
body of believers, worldwide (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:17-18). According to the Bible, there is no single
person on earth who is head over the whole church, and there is no single body
of certain believers over the whole church.
John
continues:
“And since
Israel is the Old Testament ‘church’ and the Church is the New Testament
“Israel”, it is also fair to say that the entire Bible came from the ‘church’.”
Again, John
is playing fast and loose with the term.
But Israel and the church are two separate entities. Yes, they are both the people of God, but
each group has a separate role to play in history.
Same Doctrine?
But who was
it that actually wrote the Bible? Did
any of these Bible authors (e.g., Matthew, Mark, John, Paul) claim to be Roman
Catholic? No, not one. John, as many Catholics apologists do, is
trying to force the teachings of these authors of Scripture into the mold of
modern Catholicism, and it doesn’t work.
The teachings of the modern Catholic Church are not the teachings of
Jesus Christ and the apostolic authors.
John Martignoni conflates the two.
Conclusion
And John,
for the record – on the one hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with men
getting their teachings/doctrine from the Scriptures, which is what we are to
be doing in the first place (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:15; 1
John 4:1). You act as though
those who do use the Bible for doctrine are some kind of second class
Christians (or worse).
But on the
other hand, it IS wrong for anyone to claim that they are the only ones who have the fullness of the
truth, especially with all the false doctrine the Catholic Church has. John, no matter how you slice it, Scripture
is not on your side.
You may say,
“It’s not false doctrine, it’s just that you Protestants are using your own
fallible private interpretation when reading the Bible!” Well, we can get into that with my next
scheduled post…
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