JOHN MARTIGNONI AND HIS THOUGHTS ON “BIBLE” CHURCHES

Today, we again visit Catholic apologist and speaker, John Martignoni, and we’ll take a look at his Newsletter #538.  In this issue, John addresses “The Problem with So-Called ‘Bible’ Churches.”

You can find the link here:

https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/758-the-problem-with-so-called-bible-churches-apologetics-for-the-masses-538

According to John:

“They say that all of their beliefs come straight from the Bible.  Sola Scriptura! is their rallying cry.  The Bible is their sole authority for what they believe and teach.  Or, they might say it’s their ‘ultimate’ authority or their only ‘infallible’ authority or some such thing… Regardless of whatever particular verbiage they use, it boils down to this: Protestant churches claim to take their beliefs and teachings on doctrine and morals straight ‘from’ the Bible.” 

He then says:

“… I realized that every church that claims Sola Scriptura as its most fundamental principle, and claims to take its beliefs and teachings straight from the Bible – well, every one of those churches, by claiming  to be a ‘Bible church’ – is, at the very same time, claiming not to be the church of the Bible.” (Emphasis in original)

So what in the world does he mean by this?

John then says:

“In order for the church to get its beliefs ‘from’ the Bible, the Bible would have to exist before the church did.  Yet, as we have seen, from the Word of God, the Church founded by Jesus Christ - the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide (John 16:13) - that Church existed before a single word of the New Testament was ever written!” (Emphasis in original)

And a little later:

“But here’s the thing.  The Catholic Church is not a ‘Bible’ church in the sense that we take our beliefs/teachings ‘from’ the Bible; it is, however, a ‘Bible’ church in the sense that we put our beliefs/teachings ‘into’ the Bible.  So, we are not a ‘Bible’ church; rather, we are the Bible Church…we are the Church ‘of’ the Bible.” (Emphasis in original)

So, basically, John is saying, “Why would anyone want to be in a church that takes its beliefs FROM the Bible when you can be in the Church who GAVE YOU the Bible?”

For starters, see this link that challenges this idea:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html

The Truth

Well, John, that all sounds great, but no, if you (Catholics) were THE Bible church, you wouldn’t have so many false doctrines, as demonstrated throughout this blog.

If you had the true gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), you would not be like the Judaizers (Acts 15:1, 5), who believed that Jesus died on the cross, but also trusted in their works to be saved, and added them to the cross of Jesus Christ.  You would steer clear of idolatry and stop praying to anyone other than God.  You would put away the shrines to Mary and speak out against the papacy and your ministerial priesthood, all of which are totally unbiblical.  And there are many, many other issues with which to deal.  I know that this is a lot for most Catholics to take in, but I must be blunt with you and tell you the truth (Galatians 4:16).  The time is getting late and we are nearer the Lord’s Return than ever before (Romans 13:11).  It is certainly not safe to have all these unbiblical teachings hanging over your head.  John, you’re deceiving many Catholics and you’ll have to answer to God for each of these souls.

Which Came First?

The question often comes up in Catholic/Protestant discussions: Which came first, the Bible or the Church?  John contends that we can have a Church without the Bible, but it is not possible to have a Bible without the Church.  But is this true? 

No, the church did not come first.  Many Old Testament Scriptures existed hundreds, and even thousands, of years before the church ever existed.  God has chosen to give us Scripture little by little over the centuries.  He then created the church, with those Old Testament writings as its foundation (Isaiah 53; Jeremiah 31:31-34; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 1:1-2).  And by His design, God then gradually added more Scripture (the New Testament) after the church was in place.  So, yes, the New Testament came after the church was born, but there was much Scripture which existed long before that.

Let’s Use the Term Correctly!

John says:

“Furthermore, who wrote the Bible?  Let me refine that by asking: Who wrote the New Testament part of the Bible?  Members of the Church.  Every author of a New Testament book was a member of the Church.  So, it is entirely accurate to say that the Bible came from the Church.”

John is playing word games here.  Yes, the writers of the Sacred Scriptures were all saved – that is, they were members of the church (the global assembly of believers).  But John, like many other Catholics, often uses “the church” to mean “only the leaders of the church,” i.e., the Magisterium.  In fact, they will use “the church” and “the Catholic Magisterium” as if the terms are fully interchangeable, but Scripture will not allow such a concept.  Like I said, Catholics, including John Martignoni, will often play fast and loose with biblical terms.

For example, in this newsletter, John says 1) “the entire Bible came from the church,” 2) “without the church, you don’t have the Bible,” 3) that church wrote the New Testament and gave it to the world,” 4) “that church vouched for the fact that the New Testament, as well as the Old, is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God,” 5) the church that gave us the Bible in the first place,” 6) the Church founded by Jesus Christ,” 7) the Church that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide (John 16:13),” 8) a “Bible” Church in the sense that we put our beliefs/teachings ‘into’ the Bible,” and 9) the Church that serves as the authoritative witness that the books of the Bible are indeed the inspired, inerrant, Word of God.”

In all these instances, John is using the term to mean a Magisterium.

But none of these descriptions of the church are biblical.  None of these refers to the universal church, worldwide, nor do they simply refer to the local body of believers.  Rather, Catholics are referring to an unbiblical (and supposedly infallible) “Magisterium,” which Scripture knows nothing about!

Let’s get the definition of “church” right, once and for all.  The Catholic Magisterium is NOT the church.  Scripture never refers to the “leaders only” as the church – there is no such thing.  Again, Scripture only uses the term “church(es)” in two ways: 1) as the local body of believers (1 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:2; Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18, 3:1, 7, 14), and 2) as the universal body of believers, worldwide (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:17-18).  According to the Bible, there is no single person on earth who is head over the whole church, and there is no single body of certain believers over the whole church.

John continues:

“And since Israel is the Old Testament ‘church’ and the Church is the New Testament “Israel”, it is also fair to say that the entire Bible came from the ‘church’.”

Again, John is playing fast and loose with the term.  But Israel and the church are two separate entities.  Yes, they are both the people of God, but each group has a separate role to play in history. 

Same Doctrine?

But who was it that actually wrote the Bible?  Did any of these Bible authors (e.g., Matthew, Mark, John, Paul) claim to be Roman Catholic?  No, not one.  John, as many Catholics apologists do, is trying to force the teachings of these authors of Scripture into the mold of modern Catholicism, and it doesn’t work.  The teachings of the modern Catholic Church are not the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostolic authors.  John Martignoni conflates the two.

Conclusion

And John, for the record – on the one hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with men getting their teachings/doctrine from the Scriptures, which is what we are to be doing in the first place (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:15; 1 John 4:1).  You act as though those who do use the Bible for doctrine are some kind of second class Christians (or worse). 

But on the other hand, it IS wrong for anyone to claim that they are the only ones who have the fullness of the truth, especially with all the false doctrine the Catholic Church has.  John, no matter how you slice it, Scripture is not on your side.

You may say, “It’s not false doctrine, it’s just that you Protestants are using your own fallible private interpretation when reading the Bible!”  Well, we can get into that with my next scheduled post…

 

EXCESSIVE DEVOTION TO MARY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

 

I recently ran across an article on a website that featured an “Ask a Priest” section.  In this particular article, an upset and frustrated woman writes in and asks the priest about Marian devotion, i.e., the intense devotion, prayers and attention directed to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

I believe that this lady was more discerning and more honest with the biblical evidence than most Catholics.  She explains that she and her husband were former Protestants, but had now been Catholic for years.  Yet, they still struggled with all the attention Mary receives.  She went on to say, “To us she receives more prayers, attention, devotion, processions and obedience than Jesus, which to us still after all these years is worship and not mere veneration.”

Yes, indeed, and it is generally referred to by Catholics as “excessive devotion.”  But the Bible calls it idolatry (Acts 17:16, 22-23).

This woman tells how this teaching had been bothering them for years and she explains what happened one day when she went to confession: “For penance the priest told me to ask Mary to pardon my sins and then say five Hail Mary’s.”  This, of course, seriously bothered her and she states, “… I had been struggling to go to church because of Mary, and now I never want to go back, not to any church.”

See the article here:

https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-what-if-marian-devotion-seems-too-much/

The Priest Responds

The priest to whom the lady wrote then answered, “… true devotion to Mary always leads us closer to her Son… But these cases of exaggeration are anomalies [i.e., something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.]” 

I’m a former Catholic, and I don’t know, but from what I’ve seen, this excessive devotion seems to be the norm for many Catholics, especially those in other, mostly-Catholic, countries.

The “Ask-a-Priest” then goes on to quote official Catholic teaching on Mary’s role and how it supposedly does not obscure or diminish the role of Jesus – yet it mentions her “salvific influence.” (Lumen Gentium, No. 60)

The priest goes on to say, “Mary is important only because Jesus is much, much more important.”

But tell that to the millions who bow humbly in prayer to statues of Mary, asking HER for things like salvation, and calling HER “our life, our sweetness, our hope,” etc.  Ask those millions who make pilgrimages every single year to shrines built in Mary’s honor and we can see who is more important to them.

If SHE is much, much less important than Jesus, then why are there so many more shrines in America and all around the world to her, rather than to Jesus?  And why does the Catholic rosary have far more prayers addressed to Mary than prayers to Jesus/God?

The priest continues: “As for the penance you received: Perhaps the priest in his zeal misspoke when he implied that Mary would be the one to forgive you.”

“Misspoke” is a giant understatement.  Don’t you think that priests (who are highly educated) should know better than to suggest such a thing as Mary forgiving sin?  Have not priests taken a solemn vow to be faithful in correctly dispensing penances in the confessional? 

In Catholicism, is the confessional the place to make flippant comments or show misguided zeal?  Surely, Catholics will say no.  So, priests need to quit making excuses for each other!

Furthermore, the priest said, “He [the priest giving penance] was probably just trying to encourage you in your relationship with Mary.” 

Well, that’s the problem!  Too much emphasis on Mary is the very thing that this woman was so concerned about.

Furthermore, he said, “The key thing is not to dismiss entirely the role of Mary simply because some folks might seem to take things to an unhealthy extreme.”

This “Ask-a-Priest” is bending over backward to avoid placing the blame on the Catholic Church who allows such behavior.  But didn’t he just say that it was an “unhealthy extreme,” yet he seems to be ok with it?  Is no one accountable in this?  Is anyone ever rebuked for this idolatry? 

And, I have to add, what exactly is the “role” of Mary in the church?  The Bible appoints no special role to her that is different from any other believer’s role.  Yes, she gave birth to and raised and nurtured the Savior, but there is no exceptional “role” for Mary in the body of Christ, especially in the exalted manner that we often see.  This priest goes on to mention the “scriptural roots” of true Marian devotion.  But there is no such thing!

Again, he said, “You want to be careful, too, because the devil would like to sow seeds of doubt about the Church in you, especially after your journey over the years.”

Yeah, be careful about doubting the Church, but never mind the possibility of idolatry, leading many to Hell… just be obedient to the Magisterium.  It just can’t be the Church’s fault, right?

And finally, “In the meantime stay focused on Jesus in the Eucharist and in Scripture.”

Notice how the priest inserts “in the Eucharist” here.  He is simply jumping from one form of idolatry to another.

Let it be known that the priest in this article never says anything about being careful in your devotion, toning it down, or warning of the likelihood of idolatry.  In fact, have you ever heard of ANYONE who was punished by a pope or other Catholic official for excessive devotion to Mary?  I certainly haven’t.

It seems that devoted Catholics are NEVER rebuked for this.  Therefore, it is a practice that actually ends up being encouraged in the Church.  Authorities may spout the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but I don’t see any negative consequences for this practice.

Defending the Problem

Another source I found is by Catholic apologist Joe Heschmeyer whose article is eloquently written and titled In Defense of Exaggerated Marian Devotion.  You can find it here:

https://shamelesspopery.com/exaggerated-marian-devotion/

Now, just looking at this title should disturb us.  Remember, the Catholic Church “officially” discourages excessive devotion, but from the very outset of his article, Joe Heschmeyer is bent on defending this behavior, instead of actually confronting it.

Joe states that these affectionate prayers and all this special attention given to Mary are “more like love letters to the Virgin Mary than they are like carefully-worded theological treatises.”

Well, no one is expected to act as a theologian when praying, but common sense and the Bible expose what is really happening here.

He also says, “Shouldn’t we be careful not to exaggerate or use over-the-top or flowery language?  No.  There are two reasons for this.  First, it limits the fullness of human emotional expression… Second, rejecting exaggeration thwarts our ability to understand the Bible… because the Bible employs exaggeration.” (Emphasis in original)

This was the thrust of his whole article.  Ok, so let’s look at this.  First, he says we shouldn’t limit “the fullness of human emotional expression” in prayer.  Ok, then would it be ok to add curse words and blasphemous phrases in prayer, as well… you know, since that carries a lot of emotional expression, right?  No sane Catholic would suggest this.  So, of course there should be limitations.  And biblical prayer must indeed be limited, and it is rightly limited to God, alone (Psalm 73:25).  No one should even be praying to Mary at all, much less using such exalted language toward her in prayer.

One must ask, where does all this “freedom of expression” stuff end?  If the fullness of freedom has no limits, then let’s just take it to the next level and “venerate” anyone and everyone!  Better yet, let’s just worship everything!  Of course, that’s silly, but that’s what can happen if you erase proper biblical boundaries.

Secondly, Joe says that we shouldn’t reject exaggeration, since the Bible sometimes uses exaggeration.  Ok, the Bible sometimes employs exaggeration… therefore, we should use extreme measures approaching the worship of Mary?  I’m sorry, but that just does not follow.  Again, what is it that properly limits this exaggeration, if not biblical principles of worship?

Very eloquent article, Joe.  Too bad you’re promoting idolatry and you’ll have to answer for that.  And so will the two priests mentioned above.

“Veneration” in Catholic Countries

I couldn’t find the exact quote, but the late Dave Hunt, who had travelled around the world, once said that the devotion to Mary in the United States was different than in other (mainly Catholic) countries.  He basically said that American Catholics observe a more “politically correct” version, one that is toned down, as opposed to the more freely expressed version of “veneration” in other countries.  In these countries, it often seems that it is simply open and outright worship of Mary.

To further confirm that idea, in another article on the Berean Call website, a questioner stated that Catholics don’t worship Mary.  The host answered, in part:

“… many a Catholic has commented that, ‘Catholics in Mexico (and throughout Latin America), in their devotion to Mary, do things that we would only do when worshipping God.’”

See here:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/question-what-do-you-mean-mary-worship

Conclusion

As long as the Catholic Church defends (or makes excuses for) its members who practice “excessive devotion,” they will never get rid of this problem – and more and more people will be lost for eternity.

According to Lumen Gentium 51:

“… if any abuses, excesses or defects have crept in here or there, [we urge all concerned] to do what is in their power to remove or correct them…”

I don’t see it happening, folks.  I don’t see it now, nor have I ever seen this happen… and I suspect that it never will.

The faults or excesses of some people are no excuse to leave God or leave Christianity altogether, as the lady in the first article was about to do.  However, when a group/system/religion purposely ignores the wrongdoing of its people and offer no discipline, the leaders of that group are at fault.

So, the bottom line is that the Catholic Church officially looks down on excessive devotion to Mary.  But practically speaking, it seems that they (those “venerating” Mary) can all get away with it.  The pope, as the “Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church” has the power to stop all this at any time.  The problem is, I don’t think he wants to.

I often wonder – what exactly would it take to cause Catholics to see through the false claims and the obvious idolatry within the Catholic Church?  Has the Church so indoctrinated them, that they can no longer recognize truth?

The Bible describes a hardening process by which one suppresses the truth, and his foolish heart is darkened, little by little, until the light that he has been so graciously given dims more and more… and he ends up worshipping the creature, rather than the Creator. (Romans 1:18-25)

It appears that this may be the case in Catholic obsession with Mary and their excessive devotion to her.