YES, CATHOLICS DO WORSHIP MARY! (Part 2)

 

We are well aware that Catholics are encouraged by their church to pray to Mary, the saints, and even to angels.  In Part One of this series, I stressed the biblical fact that praying to anyone other than God is not permissible, since prayer is always a form of worship.  Therefore, praying to someone is indeed worship of that someone, no matter what name you try to give it.

Now, we know that worship and prayer are not exactly the same things.  Actions, words and thoughts/attitude can all constitute worship.  Prayer and worship are distinct, yet very closely related.  But again, prayer is always an act of worship in Scripture. 

In fact, there are so many examples of prayer in the Bible that one would have to have an agenda to overlook the obvious fact that no one in Scripture prayed (with God’s approval) to an entity other than God.  This is such a basic and elementary principle that cannot be avoided or overlooked… unless there is an ulterior motive. 

Fabricating Terms

But Catholics will say that the Church teaches that there are different types of prayer, for example: prayer to the saints (which they call “dulia”), prayer to Mary (“hyperdulia”) and prayer to God (“latria”).  And they tell us that each type of prayer is proper toward its intended recipient.

But the Bible is oblivious to such distinctions.  The Bible says to give honor to whom honor is due (Romans 13:7), but never suggests giving the honor of prayer to other humans (Acts 10:25-26) – alive or deceased – or even to angels (Revelation 22:8-9).

But Catholic apologists love to play word games and say things like:

• “prayer is just asking”
• “we don’t actually pray to Mary, but we’re just asking her to pray for us”
• “the angel in the book of Revelation received prayer and offered the prayers of the saints to God”
• "Mary and the saints in Heaven are more righteous than we are, and their prayers are more effective”
•  “in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), the latter prayed to Abraham”
• “in the Bible, sometimes people used the phrase, ‘I pray thee,’ with other people and that is considered prayer”
• “if we can ask friends/family to pray for us, why not Mary and the saints?  It’s the same thing!”

But see the links below to answer these types of arguments:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2011/02/praying-to-saints.html

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2019/01/dave-armstrong-on-praying-to-saints.html

Again, these flimsy Catholic arguments are simply semantics and shallow word games.

Location, Location, Location!

When speaking of praying to Mary, saints or angels, there is a certain aspect of this discussion that seems to be almost totally lost.  And that is the fact that Mary, along with the saints and angels in Heaven, is in another realm, another dimension.  She is not in this earthly realm.  The act of people on earth requesting something of other people on earth is not prayer.  It is simple human communication.  Addressing someone in the realm of Heaven, however, is prayer.  And therefore, if not to God, it is wrongful, since prayer involves worship.  Again, according to the examples in Scripture, God is the sole and proper recipient of prayer. 

In Scripture, the only time people were allowed to speak to angels was when they were face to face with the angel, that is, when they were in the same realm, the exception being perhaps in dreams or visions.

Likewise, there is no God-approved case of believers contacting dead saints.  Catholics like to point to Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8).  But again, Moses and Elijah were in our realm, earth, not some other spiritual realm, so this particular communication was allowed.

The same thing applies with Mary.  When she spoke with the angel Gabriel, it was face to face, here on earth.  As far as the people on earth are concerned, she is now in another realm and we are not allowed to “ask” her anything – because then it becomes prayer, and thus, idolatry. 

Another problem with praying to Mary and the saints is this: Personally, I believe that Mary is in Heaven (but not because the Catholic Church says so).  I believe that she was close to the apostles and their doctrine (Scripture) and she probably made it to Heaven.  But we have no scriptural proof that she is there.  God forbid, but what if she ISN’T really in Heaven?  Or what if some of the saints you pray to are actually in Hell?  Wouldn’t you be sinning by praying to God’s enemies? 

Just because the Catholic Church has “canonized” or “beatified” someone doesn’t prove they are in Heaven, since these are just fabricated, unbiblical concepts.  In fact, the Church will tell us that, apart from a revelation from God, they cannot guarantee that a particular “saint” or anyone else is in Heaven.  In that case, it is certainly possible that you are indeed praying to an enemy of God!  Your “devotion” to them may be leading you to Hell. 

Excessive Devotion Abounds

By the way, the term “excessive devotion” is a Catholic term, although I’ve never actually seen the Church formally accuse any Catholic of this sin.  But when Protestants point out this excess which we find in certain books or at Marian shrines, etc., Catholics are quick to say that these words/actions are not “formal doctrine,” but only a reflection of what the speaker/participant “feels.”  This way, the Church doesn’t appear to be responsible for these Catholics’ unbiblical behavior.  But I truly wonder, how excessive would it have to get before the pope ever steps in and says “Enough!”  We may never know.

More examples of this “devotion” can be seen in a very popular Catholic book written by a “saint” and “doctor” of the Church, Alphonsus Liguori, called The Glories of Mary, which has the Catholic seals of approval, and it contains countless examples of excessive devotion.

You can find the book here:

https://archive.org/details/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft/mode/2up

If there is any doubt that Catholics ascribe to Mary titles or attributes reserved for God alone, read this book.  Just to show a few mild examples:

“I will say to thee with thy loving child John Berchmans: ‘I will never rest until I have attained a tender love for my mother Mary.’  No, I will not rest until I am certain of having obtained a love – a constant and tender love for thee, my mother, who hast loved me with so much tenderness even when I was so ungrateful towards thee.” (Emphasis added - page 66-67)

According to this, the believer’s rest is in Mary.

But in the Catholic New American Bible (NAB), it tells us:

“My soul rests in God alone, from whom comes my salvation.” (Psalm 62:2 – Emphasis added)

And shortly after, verse 6 says, “My soul, be at rest in God alone, from whom comes my hope.” (Emphasis added)

According to Scripture, the believer’s rest is in God alone, not Mary!

Concerning the issue of salvation, the Glories of Mary also says:

“Oh my lady, thou alone art my help, given me by God; thou art… the hope of my salvation.” (page 119-120 - Emphasis added)

“Oh lady, in thee I have placed all my hope, and with firm confidence I look to thee for my salvation.” (page 195 – Emphasis added)

“Let not my sins prevent me from confiding in thee, oh great mother of God; no, I trust in thee, and trust in thee so much, that if my salvation were in my own hands, yet I would place it all in thine.” (page 759 – Emphasis added)

But the (Catholic) NAB tells us:

“God alone is my rock and salvation, my secure height; I shall never fall.” (Psalm 62:3, 7 – Emphasis added)

Again, salvation is from God alone, not Mary.

This is just a tiny sampling of the insane prayers to (and descriptions of) Mary found in this book from Liguori.  Many more of these types of examples can be found here:

https://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2019/04/liguoris-idolatry-and-catholic-churchs.html

So where is the outcry of “excessive devotion” from the Catholic hierarchy?  All we seem to hear is crickets…

But wait!  There are more abominations to come, as we shall see in Part 3…

 

EXCESSIVE DEVOTION TO MARY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

 

I recently ran across an article on a website that featured an “Ask a Priest” section.  In this particular article, an upset and frustrated woman writes in and asks the priest about Marian devotion, i.e., the intense devotion, prayers and attention directed to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

I believe that this lady was more discerning and more honest with the biblical evidence than most Catholics.  She explains that she and her husband were former Protestants, but had now been Catholic for years.  Yet, they still struggled with all the attention Mary receives.  She went on to say, “To us she receives more prayers, attention, devotion, processions and obedience than Jesus, which to us still after all these years is worship and not mere veneration.”

Yes, indeed, and it is generally referred to by Catholics as “excessive devotion.”  But the Bible calls it idolatry (Acts 17:16, 22-23).

This woman tells how this teaching had been bothering them for years and she explains what happened one day when she went to confession: “For penance the priest told me to ask Mary to pardon my sins and then say five Hail Mary’s.”  This, of course, seriously bothered her and she states, “… I had been struggling to go to church because of Mary, and now I never want to go back, not to any church.”

See the article here:

https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-what-if-marian-devotion-seems-too-much/

The Priest Responds

The priest to whom the lady wrote then answered, “… true devotion to Mary always leads us closer to her Son… But these cases of exaggeration are anomalies [i.e., something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.]” 

I’m a former Catholic, and I don’t know, but from what I’ve seen, this excessive devotion seems to be the norm for many Catholics, especially those in other, mostly-Catholic, countries.

The “Ask-a-Priest” then goes on to quote official Catholic teaching on Mary’s role and how it supposedly does not obscure or diminish the role of Jesus – yet it mentions her “salvific influence.” (Lumen Gentium, No. 60)

The priest goes on to say, “Mary is important only because Jesus is much, much more important.”

But tell that to the millions who bow humbly in prayer to statues of Mary, asking HER for things like salvation, and calling HER “our life, our sweetness, our hope,” etc.  Ask those millions who make pilgrimages every single year to shrines built in Mary’s honor and we can see who is more important to them.

If SHE is much, much less important than Jesus, then why are there so many more shrines in America and all around the world to her, rather than to Jesus?  And why does the Catholic rosary have far more prayers addressed to Mary than prayers to Jesus/God?

The priest continues: “As for the penance you received: Perhaps the priest in his zeal misspoke when he implied that Mary would be the one to forgive you.”

“Misspoke” is a giant understatement.  Don’t you think that priests (who are highly educated) should know better than to suggest such a thing as Mary forgiving sin?  Have not priests taken a solemn vow to be faithful in correctly dispensing penances in the confessional? 

In Catholicism, is the confessional the place to make flippant comments or show misguided zeal?  Surely, Catholics will say no.  So, priests need to quit making excuses for each other!

Furthermore, the priest said, “He [the priest giving penance] was probably just trying to encourage you in your relationship with Mary.” 

Well, that’s the problem!  Too much emphasis on Mary is the very thing that this woman was so concerned about.

Furthermore, he said, “The key thing is not to dismiss entirely the role of Mary simply because some folks might seem to take things to an unhealthy extreme.”

This “Ask-a-Priest” is bending over backward to avoid placing the blame on the Catholic Church who allows such behavior.  But didn’t he just say that it was an “unhealthy extreme,” yet he seems to be ok with it?  Is no one accountable in this?  Is anyone ever rebuked for this idolatry? 

And, I have to add, what exactly is the “role” of Mary in the church?  The Bible appoints no special role to her that is different from any other believer’s role.  Yes, she gave birth to and raised and nurtured the Savior, but there is no exceptional “role” for Mary in the body of Christ, especially in the exalted manner that we often see.  This priest goes on to mention the “scriptural roots” of true Marian devotion.  But there is no such thing!

Again, he said, “You want to be careful, too, because the devil would like to sow seeds of doubt about the Church in you, especially after your journey over the years.”

Yeah, be careful about doubting the Church, but never mind the possibility of idolatry, leading many to Hell… just be obedient to the Magisterium.  It just can’t be the Church’s fault, right?

And finally, “In the meantime stay focused on Jesus in the Eucharist and in Scripture.”

Notice how the priest inserts “in the Eucharist” here.  He is simply jumping from one form of idolatry to another.

Let it be known that the priest in this article never says anything about being careful in your devotion, toning it down, or warning of the likelihood of idolatry.  In fact, have you ever heard of ANYONE who was punished by a pope or other Catholic official for excessive devotion to Mary?  I certainly haven’t.

It seems that devoted Catholics are NEVER rebuked for this.  Therefore, it is a practice that actually ends up being encouraged in the Church.  Authorities may spout the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but I don’t see any negative consequences for this practice.

Defending the Problem

Another source I found is by Catholic apologist Joe Heschmeyer whose article is eloquently written and titled In Defense of Exaggerated Marian Devotion.  You can find it here:

https://shamelesspopery.com/exaggerated-marian-devotion/

Now, just looking at this title should disturb us.  Remember, the Catholic Church “officially” discourages excessive devotion, but from the very outset of his article, Joe Heschmeyer is bent on defending this behavior, instead of actually confronting it.

Joe states that these affectionate prayers and all this special attention given to Mary are “more like love letters to the Virgin Mary than they are like carefully-worded theological treatises.”

Well, no one is expected to act as a theologian when praying, but common sense and the Bible expose what is really happening here.

He also says, “Shouldn’t we be careful not to exaggerate or use over-the-top or flowery language?  No.  There are two reasons for this.  First, it limits the fullness of human emotional expression… Second, rejecting exaggeration thwarts our ability to understand the Bible… because the Bible employs exaggeration.” (Emphasis in original)

This was the thrust of his whole article.  Ok, so let’s look at this.  First, he says we shouldn’t limit “the fullness of human emotional expression” in prayer.  Ok, then would it be ok to add curse words and blasphemous phrases in prayer, as well… you know, since that carries a lot of emotional expression, right?  No sane Catholic would suggest this.  So, of course there should be limitations.  And biblical prayer must indeed be limited, and it is rightly limited to God, alone (Psalm 73:25).  No one should even be praying to Mary at all, much less using such exalted language toward her in prayer.

One must ask, where does all this “freedom of expression” stuff end?  If the fullness of freedom has no limits, then let’s just take it to the next level and “venerate” anyone and everyone!  Better yet, let’s just worship everything!  Of course, that’s silly, but that’s what can happen if you erase proper biblical boundaries.

Secondly, Joe says that we shouldn’t reject exaggeration, since the Bible sometimes uses exaggeration.  Ok, the Bible sometimes employs exaggeration… therefore, we should use extreme measures approaching the worship of Mary?  I’m sorry, but that just does not follow.  Again, what is it that properly limits this exaggeration, if not biblical principles of worship?

Very eloquent article, Joe.  Too bad you’re promoting idolatry and you’ll have to answer for that.  And so will the two priests mentioned above.

“Veneration” in Catholic Countries

I couldn’t find the exact quote, but the late Dave Hunt, who had travelled around the world, once said that the devotion to Mary in the United States was different than in other (mainly Catholic) countries.  He basically said that American Catholics observe a more “politically correct” version, one that is toned down, as opposed to the more freely expressed version of “veneration” in other countries.  In these countries, it often seems that it is simply open and outright worship of Mary.

To further confirm that idea, in another article on the Berean Call website, a questioner stated that Catholics don’t worship Mary.  The host answered, in part:

“… many a Catholic has commented that, ‘Catholics in Mexico (and throughout Latin America), in their devotion to Mary, do things that we would only do when worshipping God.’”

See here:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/question-what-do-you-mean-mary-worship

Conclusion

As long as the Catholic Church defends (or makes excuses for) its members who practice “excessive devotion,” they will never get rid of this problem – and more and more people will be lost for eternity.

According to Lumen Gentium 51:

“… if any abuses, excesses or defects have crept in here or there, [we urge all concerned] to do what is in their power to remove or correct them…”

I don’t see it happening, folks.  I don’t see it now, nor have I ever seen this happen… and I suspect that it never will.

The faults or excesses of some people are no excuse to leave God or leave Christianity altogether, as the lady in the first article was about to do.  However, when a group/system/religion purposely ignores the wrongdoing of its people and offer no discipline, the leaders of that group are at fault.

So, the bottom line is that the Catholic Church officially looks down on excessive devotion to Mary.  But practically speaking, it seems that they (those “venerating” Mary) can all get away with it.  The pope, as the “Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church” has the power to stop all this at any time.  The problem is, I don’t think he wants to.

I often wonder – what exactly would it take to cause Catholics to see through the false claims and the obvious idolatry within the Catholic Church?  Has the Church so indoctrinated them, that they can no longer recognize truth?

The Bible describes a hardening process by which one suppresses the truth, and his foolish heart is darkened, little by little, until the light that he has been so graciously given dims more and more… and he ends up worshipping the creature, rather than the Creator. (Romans 1:18-25)

It appears that this may be the case in Catholic obsession with Mary and their excessive devotion to her.